Without Context, Some Lyrics Inside the Hello Dolly Plugin Are Degrading to Women

There have been many discussions over the years on whether or not Hello Dolly should be unbundled with WordPress. Seven years ago, it was argued that the lyrics are copyrighted and could potentially violate the GPL license.

The latest issue with Hello Dolly is that some lyrics that appear in users dashboards with the plugin activated can be degrading to women without context.

Two examples are:

  • Find her an empty lap, fellas
  • Find her a vacant knee, fellas

Joe McGill has created a trac ticket proposing that those two lines be removed. "The Hello Dolly plugin has been bundled in WordPress for many years, being a simple example of how to build a plugin for WordPress while also adding a bit of whimsy to admin," he said.

"However, there are several passages of text from this song which are inappropriate to display without any context to people using WordPress—particularly as the WordPress project seeks to promote inclusivity for all."

The discussion within the ticket suggests creating a black list or replacing the lyrics with less offensive versions. In many of the Google search results for Hello Dolly lyrics by Jerry Herman, shows that the lyrics inside the plugin and those in the song are different.

The lyrics say, "Find me a vacant knee, fellas." In a video on YouTube of Hello Dolly featuring Sarah Gardner singing the lyrics, she clearly says "Find her an empty lap, fellas." In a YouTube video of Louis Armstrong singing Hello Dolly live, he says "Find her an empty lap, fellas."

Putting aside the debate of which version of the lyrics are used, displaying the text above without context can and is seen as degrading women. At a time when WordPress and its community are doing what it can to be more inclusive, changing or removing the lyrics seems like an easy win.

83 Comments


  1. The whole idea of bundling the Hello Dolly plugin into WordPress has been dumb from the beginning. All in all… take the thing out of WordPress.

    Report


    1. Agreed. It’s the first thing I delete upon downloading WordPress with every project.

      Report


  2. and here I thought context was important…

    Report


    1. it is, and since this plugin leaves out the context entirely, it probably is best to just ditch it anyways.

      Report


  3. Really?

    If this is gonna be an issue, just remove the plugin. Just don’t waste too much time on something this trivial

    Report


    1. Yo bro, lemme throw some info at ya. People aren’t all pissy about the lyrics in a song written as a whole in 1963 . They’re not actually pissy at all. So peeps just felt it was worth pointing out that when the plugin does what it does, which is to take lyrics out of a song and display them alone and out of context, those lyrics form phrases that *are* degrading to women. Since WordPress is used across the whole damn globe, by all sorts of peeps, it might be a good idea to consider that these phrases are being shown for everyone who enables a plugin that comes with their WP Install. That’s all bro, so chill a bit.

      Report


    2. Thank God if we have no other problems.

      The more I think about it the more I come to conclusion that the trac is just a smart strategic movement by Joe McGil to get rid of the Hello Dolly plugin. All others serious attempts and discussions were not successful so trying to bring it to connection with some anti female issues could finally kill it:) Keep trying Joe

      Report


    3. @Jeff Yablon

      I agree, completely. Also, those offended can delete the plugin. If it were any other plugin, this should be a non-issue.

      But I think the issue is not that Hello Dolly is offensive but rather that, since it’s bundled with WordPress, it can be seen as those lyrics are endorsed by WP.

      As an aside, Hello Dolly inspired me to make a similar plugin but with Pirate’s of the Caribbean movie quotes (nobody uses it, but I made it for fun).

      I don’t find the Hello Dolly lyrics degrading or offensive. I am a woman but I appreciate music and culture and its history without thinking that it has to bend to my preferences. What a dull world it would be if all music was stripped of its culture.

      Report


      1. Appropriating pirate culture is offensive to me as a descendent of a pirate. Shut it down.

        Report


      2. Isabel, that’s a well-reasoned, well-expressed position.

        I’m just amazed that we’re discussing it in any but the most dispassionate manner. Like this:

        The HD plug-in is mostly useless and should be removed because of that. BUT: because a few people DO find it useful it needs to stay unless someone takes the time to replace it and if that’s done it should be replaced with something innocuous.

        Ha. I said “innocuous”. Good luck with that. ;-)

        Report


    4. You’re absolutely right Jeff Yablon. People are so f*cking bored with their lives that they have to find something to be professionally offended about. Drama queens that they are.

      Report


    5. OMG JEFF!

      1) I cannot believe you are actively engaged in the WordPress community at all.

      2) I cannot believe you have posted a comment on WPTavern.

      3) That takes some guts, dude!

      4) I also cannot believe you are using WordPress in your TLD still! That takes even more guts than #2!!!

      I’m dying!! This cracks me up so much.

      Report


      1. Sarah, your unwillingness to see other viewpoints than your own is truly sad.

        I’d stop there, but since you’ve brought it up, I have an actual LICENSE to use w-o-r-d-p-r-e-s-s in my subdomains. Perhaps you should read a bit more and run on uninformed indignance a bit less.

        Best wishes …

        Report


      2. Ryan, that’s always been the case, but remember that The WordPress Foundation (that’s who owns all the rights and trademarks) could change that policy any time.

        That’s why from my vantage-point having an explicit license mattered.

        Report


    6. Stupid is a polite characterization of those leftist Social Justice Warriors, who are destroying systematically free speech with the gender equality label. Very soon one will commit an offense when making fun of a woman’s dress …

      Report


    7. Jeff, you’re right, but common sense ain’t so common, besides, who needs logic, proportion and reasonableness when you can emote, be outraged and play the victim?

      Report


    8. Exactly! I’m quite surprised that so many ‘busy’ WP ‘developers’ have so much free time to bicker over something so trivial as a simple plugin that the creator of this entire industry wanted to include for whatever reason. He’s done enough free work to give many ‘developers’ a chance to make a living, for the record, so if he wants it in there, good for him!

      Report


  4. As a woman, I really understand what you’re saying and agree, it may not be a big deal for men (which seems to be the majority here) but it’s a small change that most women would appreciate in 2018. It’s not big deal and won’t keep us awake at night but small changes are important.

    Report


  5. For one, I never used the plugin.

    Number 2, I’m more concerned with meeting Google’s standards, not getting hacked and keeping my server online.

    Really? Are we to sweat about lyrics? Where do we draw the line to erasing/revising and/or rewriting history because it may offend?

    There are far more important issues. WordPress, please stay out of the business of political correctness and ideology.

    Report


  6. Ahh, all this talk about WordPress or wordpress ,,,, like what WordPress are we talking about? I just want all WordPress Automattic out of WordPress because it is becoming a monopoly. For those of you that do not see this monopoly OMG.

    WordPress.org is a non profit, that the developers of the world contribute to and help build, then WordPress.com has its links on it to support its own growth. WordPress.org is not treated like a real non-profit that respects the people that build it. Mr. Matt did some-thing cool a long time ago, by contributing his blog but ( it would still be the same o’l blog w/o the rest of the developers ) its the rest of the world of developers that make it better line by line. How-ever some day he will take it all down if he wants to, and that is not fair. Its not fair that the WordPress.org does not run and operate with out Mr.Matt, other wise it really would be doing really great and have people that would vote to raise and create avenues for funding it, to maybe have offices all around the world, for its community.

    I am so sure a dictator will decide if this plugin should be removed or not , or fixed to make every one happy here. My issue here is there already should be a WordPress.org human resource that should fix these’s issues when they arise. I just hope the WordPress community will wake the heck up and get rid of every thing WordPress.com in the WordPress.org/

    If WordPress.org can have WordPress.com links at the bottom for hosting services, why not have all hosting services available too?

    IDK some people may feel the same way but are to intimidated to talk on this issue.
    I just wish I the term WordPress spoken about exactly ( If your a developer like me second guessing if frustrating as for me to post this ) meant the .ORG not the dot COM. Maybe the monopoly is to confuse or to create it.

    Like from now on can we refer to WordPress.org as WordPress…..

    And WordPress.com as to Automattic

    Or can we just type the entire domain of the either two different WordPress, when we write about it?

    Who decides what plugins go into WordPress.org ?
    I bet its Automattic and that is called a Monopoly yup.

    Besides I would rather like the idea to pick my own news treads in WordPress rather than the pre-installed ones.

    I know this comment is besides this topic a little bit but has a lot of every thing to fix these types of issues.

    I hope Mr. Matt don’t think I don’t like him that’s is not the situation. The situation is called commingling and stunting the growth of the WordPress.org community worldwide.

    Albert

    Report


  7. Deleting Hello Dolly plugin is the very first task I perform whenever I deal with a new WP install. It’s a nonsense plugin. I know, I know, newcomers may find interesting to take a look inside to see how it’s coded… Bullshit. Given the tons of tutorials and information you can look around if you are willing to google for it, this plugin doesn’t add ANYTHING. Nowadays It’s a useless piece of code. If a plugin should be bundled by default, it should be something USEFUL, like a small UI (showing practical usage of how to code an admin side screen) allowing you to disable XMLRPC (practical usage of a filter) and showing and admin notification indicating that by doing so, some plugins could not send/receive info to/from external APIs (practical usage of an action).

    So, I vote for it, kill the Hello Dolly and replace it for something useful, and that at the very least, may protect newbies’ sites.

    Report


  8. Seriously?

    Stop creating a problem from the nothing! It’s a culture heritage, and how can a trending political correctness be in higher priority than the culture?

    I agree with @Pumabydesign001: Where do we draw the line to erasing/revising and/or rewriting history because it may offend?

    Report


    1. The problem is not the whole plugin, the way you and I see it as old timers in both WP and American culture. The plugin puts up select lines from the song, out of context the very first time a new user opens his WP site. New users who have no experience with the song itself don’t even know it’s a song. So they are wondering what the heck are those “words” on my WP site for? And so the quest for learning about WP begins. But WP is a multicultural and multi-age environment, so why not just remove the two lines that people could be bothered by (when they are displayed without context)? Easy solution, no harm to the heritage (which I fully support, see my detailed comment below).

      Report


  9. Degrading to women? How about if women who don’t like the lyrics don’t open the plugin and read the code? Too much to ask? Or is that suggestion also offense? Sheesh. All this virtue signaling is total nonsense.

    Report


  10. I always saw Hello Dolly as a great begginers plugin to deconstruct and learn how to get started writing for WordPress.

    Report


  11. Yet the ones complaining the loudest are most likely to have rap and hip hop on their playlists. Degrading women is permissible as long as offender is a member of an oppressed class.

    Report


    1. Are you really unable to tell the difference between what’s distributed to millions in software with no context as to its origin or meaning vs. what a person chooses to listen to in their own private time or are you being willfully obtuse?

      Report


      1. So what you’re saying is, Helen, that you keep it clean at the office but when your out running errands you throw on your Spotify playlist with Tyler, the Creator, Notorious B.I.G., and Eminem.

        That’s cool, girl, I hear ya.

        :D

        Report


  12. Most hosts with instant WP installs strip this plugin. I haven’t seen Hello Dolly in years (maybe since 1963…)…

    Report


  13. The lyrics in the plugin may or may not be degrading to women, but they can’t be as bad as the comments on this post. Why so much pushback if it’s so trivial?

    Report


  14. Thanks for writing about this Jeff! Cool topic to cover. It took me years to understand the purpose of Hello Dolly but now that I do, I’m completely behind Joe’s proposal. It’s absolutely the right solution.

    Report


  15. Well, we are moving to WordPress 5. Honestly thousands of videos and courses on building plugins. I think the example is not needed now, why not an example of a simple Gutenberg block plugin?

    Report


    1. That is an amazing idea, Hello Dolly For Gutenberg i was thinking about some mini project to learn the Gutenberg API and that might be just it :)

      Report


  16. WordPress is not a song.

    Being Ukrainian I do not come from a sensitive culture, neither I am much sensitive person myself.

    But seeing “Find her an empty lap, fellas” on that screenshot I felt what-the-actual-hell incredulity. Definitely not appreciation of music and culture.

    To everyone who declared themselves judges of appropriate levels of drama and triviality in this thread… You know what — it cuts both ways. Your outrage is trivial and insignificant since it comes from a place devoid of perspective and empathy. Your claim to shield this with “culture” is transparent and shallow.

    I am for the culture of everyone opening WP dashboard and never being made feel weird and excluded.

    And to make it such a place there is zero doubt in me that these lines need to go.

    Report


    1. This was very well said and resonates with a whole range of discussions happening outside of WP as well.

      Report


  17. All the comments about “why make an issue out of nothing” are offensive.

    Look at the original tweet. Read the actual post from Jeff. Ignore everyone’s comments except Rarst’s because he really hits the nail on the head! Especially this part “To everyone who declared themselves judges of appropriate levels of drama and triviality in this thread… You know what — it cuts both ways. Your outrage is trivial and insignificant since it comes from a place devoid of perspective and empathy. Your claim to shield this with “culture” is transparent and shallow.”

    And then I hope you also think, “Yikes! That needs to go! SO not appropriate!”

    If you actually read the original tweet and post and think, “Geez, get a grip.” I think you need to get a grip.

    My $0.02

    Report


  18. First thing I do after installing a W.P. instance… is DELETE the Hello Dolly plugin. Problem solved. Those who want it can keep it. I don’t. But as usual, the thought police are out in full censorship mode.

    Report


  19. Why is wordpress focusing on trivial and unimportant fixes and improvements. Ditch the Hello Dolly Plugin and Leave Gutenberg as a plugin so we can decide to use it or not. just like Hello Dolly First thing I do after installing wordpress is Delete Hello Dolly and say Goodbye Dolly.

    Report


  20. Do I use Hello Dolly? Not as-is, no. I forked it into a personal plugin that uses the lyrics of The Beatles’ “Revolution” instead. :)

    Would I be sad if Hello Dolly went away? No.

    Report


  21. I’m glad to see these lines go. It is nice to be reminded that we’ve moved forward to a point where we recognize these phrases are not respectful.

    Hello Dolly is a valuable part of the history of American Theater and a great show. I don’t think either of these facts is relevant in removing these lines from WordPress.

    Report


  22. Presumably it would be a trivial step for a WordPress core developer to add a settings page to the plugin so that the user can enter their own choice of lyrics, thus hopefully keeping everyone happy and, at the same time, extending the usefulness of the plugin as a learning aid? Default setting could be ‘no lyrics’.

    Report


  23. The core problem here is that the lyrics are displayed out of context AND unexpectedly.

    One line of any song without the rest of the song can seem quite strange. In this case, if you know the whole history of Hello, Dolly, it’s fine. But most people don’t.

    Personally I had never noticed it. But then again, I learned Hello, Dolly in junior high musical theatre, as part of a musical we performed….about the history of musicals. So I have a ton of context around it: era, culture, etc. When I see “Find her an empty lap, fellas” — even if I were to see it written on a bathroom wall — I immediately hear Hello, Dolly (sung by Louis Armstrong, my favorite version) and for me, that’s an enjoyable moment.

    But now that it’s been mentioned, I do see where others might really be upset by that line OUT of context. Especially in today’s culture where we are trying to be more inclusive and sensitive. MANY people don’t know the whole song, much less the cultural context, much less have ever seen the musical (or perhaps even know it is one).

    But since the plugin just shoots up lyrics from anywhere in the song, the first time you open WordPress, I’m sure it’s very weird to many people — and even offensive if it happens to be “those” lyrics.

    I’m not a fan of removing it entirely, because it’s a good learning tool and can be modified or removed by the user. Like some other users here, I have made my own version for myself and for clients on occasion, just for fun. Having a developer make a backend for it seems like huge overkill, and doesn’t solve the real problem (well, it could, but with even more effort…).

    However, removing a couple of offensive lines so they don’t just pop up unexpectedly and without context seems like a reasonable fix to this concern, while preserving the “jazz heritage” side of WordPress. I don’t know about anyone else, but I’ve learned about a new jazz artist every time a new version comes out. Seems a shame to eliminate Hello, Dolly entirely. :)

    Report


  24. So here I am coming to my wordpress dashboard, and I’m thinking, as I often do, how nice it is to escape the politicization of everything by doing some web development…and what do I see but this nonsense?

    I wish a psychiatrist or psychologist would do some serious research into what sort of deficiencies drive the need to virtue-signal on the one hand, and to be perpetually outraged on the other. I see lots of similarities between today’s SJW nuts, and yesteryear’s religious inquisitors, and it’d be interesting to see what an honest scientist of the mind could come up with…

    Anyhoo, I do take solace in considering that this stuff will only continue to alienate people, in the same way that the self-righteous religious nuts of the past alienated lots of people, and put a stake in the heart of state-run churches. Whatever you think of him, the election of Donald Trump is clearly a backlash against this sort of stuff, and IMHO, it’s only the beginning.

    Report


    1. The irony is “in favor of removing” camp here is calm, collected, and practical, while “against” camp is losing their shit, throwing expletives, and overall being ridiculous.

      What sort of deficiency makes person see software project made more thoughtful and welcoming and conclude to vehemently protest that?

      Such people are being alienated? They feel their habitual ability to be derogatory to women is unwelcome? Great.

      Report


      1. Two facts fly in the face of your assertion that those wanting to get rid of this are calm about anything: the fact that language like ‘derogatory to women’ is being thrown about over silly old song lyrics that AFAIK has never caused any physical harm to anyone nor prevented any of the many thousands of women WP developers from productively using WP and the fact that we’re even having this discussion.

        The deficiency would lie in getting upset over something this silly to begin with. Presumably we’re adults; I know if I got this worked up over the things that offend me every day, I’d not be able to function, at all. I was taught that maturity includes sucking it up and realizing that not everyone thinks like you or has your tastes, and that within reason, you should respect that. But I suppose such accommodations are only for those with the right politics. Besides that, it’s probably too much to expect maturity from people whose philosophical and political orientations are shared with people who literally gather and yell at the sky because the political winds didn’t blow in their direction…

        Report


      2. AFAIK no one had been tortured indeed, but here you are comparing people to inquisition and calling them mentally ill.

        A paragon of maturity and not getting worked up, clearly.

        Report


      3. Well, I’m not sure those comparisons are so much a sign of maturity as they are historically correct. The drive to ideologically purity and punishing those who don’t conform is perfectly in line with religious inquisitors. We have SJW nutcases who are perfectly willing to see people deprived of their jobs because they say or post something the SJW inquisitors don’t like. Imagine what these people would do if they had the authority to use the methods the inquisitors of old did…and you do have to question the mental makeup of people who let things like this, which has existed on a product for many years, a product that many of these people used for all those years without a peep, suddenly ‘trigger’ them. This is in the vein of college students who need coloring books to cope with bad events, and people who scream at the sky. That’s not normal behavior, any of it.

        Perhaps I am a bit worked up, because I go to my dashboard, to do something that (thankfully) allows me to escape the polticization of everything…and i see this. Let’s not forget, my friend, who first got worked up and started this mess to begin with.

        I will thank you, sincerely, for keeping it civil. Indeed, I have to hand it to everyone on both sides for doing so.

        Report


      4. Just to be clear: it’s not that “suddenly people are being triggered”. It’s more a case of “until now it wasn’t safe to express such a view”.

        The argument of “it’s been like that for years” is flawed. It’s the same line that was used by people opposed to the abolition of slavery, giving women a vote, de-segregation, and so much more.

        Report


  25. I’m of the opinion that we should remove “Hello Dolly” entirely.

    If the only reason we’re keeping it around is to show others how easy it is to create a plugin, I would say that whoever inquires can easily find a thousands of similar or better solutions and tutorials online. I also feel that the userbase looking into creating plugins is a small portion of that userbase and would already have Hello Dolly uninstalled.

    Maybe they can poll that at this years WordCamps or express your opinion of removing it on trac: https://core.trac.wordpress.org/ticket/11538

    Report


  26. Goodbye Dolly – it’s time

    Report


  27. I do love the level of bitter comments and opinions about wanting Hello Dolly removed. From the amount of exacerbated opinion and virtual you would imagine this plugin has done each and every one of us some great harm.

    The great harm of… being slightly annoyed that you need to uninstall an example plugin thats outlived its use-fullness.

    It’s ok everyone.

    Report


    1. Yeah, but then they’d miss out on the joy of being outraged.

      Report


    2. I’m starting to regret participating in this comment thread, particulelry as it degrades further down.

      The comment thread seems to do a better job at expressing the sexism that exists in the community ( and our country at large, from a US perspective ) more then the plugin does. Thanks goes to Michelle for shining the flashlight. It’s good as a man to be shaken from my cofotable ignorance.

      Report


  28. Just get rid of the plugin.

    Why, why, WHY is it still included in the base installation? (Yes, I know why it was originally included, but the ostensible reason for continuing to include it is ludicrous. This is NOT how to learn how to build a plugin.)

    Those of us who make a living building sites with WordPress immediately delete it anyway. I also have a plugin that gets rid of “Howdy” in the admin bar. Both make WordPress come off as amateurish.

    So please, let’s forget about debating specific lines (though I agree those lines need to go), and just get rid of the whole stupid thing altogether.

    Report


  29. ***PLEASE NOTE THAT THIS COMMENT MIGHT OFFEND YOU, IF YOU GET OFFENDED EASILY THEN DON’T READ MY COMMENT***

    I read this whole set of comments above, it’s 9:45pm Toronto/Ottawa, Canada. New York/Washington DC/Miami, USA time. As I type THIS SENTENCE. I can’t believe I did it.

    First of all, after installation of WordPress I do the following:

    1) Delete 2014/5/6, or whatever else is right now. I keep 2017
    2) I delete Hello Dolly and Akismet (I use Antispam Bee by the way).
    3) I add the plugins I want for that site and look for a theme.

    Second of all. Should we delete EVERY plugin that is offensive to all?

    Third of all. Only you get to see it, not anyone else (unless you have other admins).

    I am Croatian and Peruvian (Eastern Europe and South America). In both of those cultures, we are not as sensitive as many people here.

    In Peru, we would say…ese hombre negro es alto y tiene una larga barba.
    The translation in english: this black man is tall and has a big beard.
    Some people would get offended that I didn’t say African-American, African-Canadian, etc… The black guy is from Peru, he was born in Peru, African-Peruvian would be close.
    Aparently people thought I said the N word (the bad one), negro means black, the colour black, as in my monitor, printer, keyboard, my underwear and my socks.

    Yes Hello Dolly, Akismet, 2016 and lower themes, should all be removed. A clean installation of WordPress shouldn’t have extra plugins and themes.

    There are many songs from the 1940s-1970s that people would find offensive. Dire Straits Money for Nothing has a word or two that would get some LGBT members upset. I can post different examples.

    If YOU don’t want certain lyrics shown on YOUR website’s admin panel then YOU go DELETE the plugin.

    Censorship upsets me, should you all be deleted? NO

    Where do we draw the line? Does Matt Mullenweg decide?

    1/2 of 1/4 of my words would be bleeped out when I speak in person. I just say F word and Shit way too often.

    Everyone is getting so sensitive now a day, no one can upset you. If someone upsets me online, I just block them.

    the WP version of blocking someone on twitter would be to delete Hello Dolly on your own site.

    Not a single client’s website(s) has Hello Dolly (or Akismet). #FYI

    ***PLEASE NOTE THAT THIS COMMENT MIGHT OFFEND YOU, IF YOU GET OFFENDED EASILY THEN DON’T READ MY COMMENT***

    Report


    1. No one calls for deleting the plugin from existence, the issue is precise and narrow of specific lyrics being bundled with core and shown without meaningful context.

      There are plenty of plugins in official repository with way more pointed and questionable lexicon/humour. If YOU want one — YOU can install one.

      WordPress is strongly focused on users and wide adoption. This means making decisions from perspective of things working for enormous amount people worldwide. That is quite incompatible with “one guy on the internet is fine with it, so it should be his way” logic.

      Report


  30. I’d be confused as heck if I was a newbie and some text like that appeared on my new WordPress installation. Yeah sure we all now know that they’re just lyrics to a song, but new people won’t, and if that’s the first line that appears, it doesn’t give a great impression of what WordPress can be.

    You don’t need to remove the offensive lines though, it’s part of an old song. Just clarify what it is so people don’t get confused in the future.

    Report


  31. It is telling that, as is all too common, everyone who’s saying that this is “an attack on free speech” or just a “big fuss about a trivial issue” is a person who is unaffected by the issue (in this instance a white, American male).

    The first “common sense” response to someone saying something is offensive (even if super tiny) should be to take the time to understand why they’re offended — NOT to argue with them that they shouldn’t be offended. That is, by all definitions, nothing more or less than victim shaming.

    WordPress is now (and has been for a while) a product with global reach and with aspirations to carry on growing. In this context, it is a very small minority of people who even know what Hello Dolly is, let alone able to understand the broader context around it. To be honest, as a European, fairly priviledged, and (mostly) white male in my late thirties, I had no idea what Hello Dolly is until a few years ago. So the expectation that the rest of the world should know the source of this alleged whimsy and its cultural roots is close-minded at best. When I first saw something along the lines of “Find her an empty lap, fellas” the only thing that came to mind (and frankly still does) is strip clubs and lap dancers.

    Finally, as someone mentioned above, these lyrics form many people’s first impressions of WordPress. Is it not worth putting aside your pride to make sure WordPress feels inclusive and welcoming to anyone who comes across it? Is that not what will ultimately best serve the community and the project?

    It is true that there are bigger issues in the WordPress and the wider world about sexism, racism, and inclusion that need to be addressed. Any yet, how can we expect to address them if the small things are being pooh-poohed?

    That doesn’t bode well.

    Report


    1. Nice try, Sir Knight.

      But yeah…it’s still a trivial issue.

      And no, those lyrics don’t form anyone’s first impressions of WordPress.

      Contorting reality to fit your opinion has never proven an effective tool for curing societal ills.

      Report


  32. This news, the only thing that lets me see, is that there are people who really have a lot of free time.

    HelloDolly is inside the garbage that WordPress brings factory installed, along with the Automattic plugins that they are interested in getting through our eyes.

    This plugin here does not make any sense, not even as an example of a plugin. The developer who thinks to make a plugin should look in the official WordPress.org documentation and find all the information, you do not need to “gut” a plugin that installs itself by default with any WordPress.

    In my specific case, every time I do a new installation, I activate “Task After Install” and clean all that trash to start working.

    Report


  33. Oh man,

    It really annoys me to see everyone turn SJW nowadays. It seems people in the first world have nothing better to do then getting triggered over some banal things.

    People concerned with things like this, are the kind of people who applaud Canada’s PM for interrupting a women because she dared to say use the word Mankind. The thought police is everyone and silicon valley and tech is infested with this kinds of people. Living in a country where free speech does not exists I can only warn you that the road you are going down leads to the exact opposite of what you wan’t. You claim you are tolerant and liberal but only to those who thing exactly as you do, everyone else is to be punished, censored, deleted, forbidden …

    Really sad to see something like this even mentioned because this should not even exist.

    I can already see the trigger warning and the extensive context explanation added to this plugins because you cant dare for people to be able to think and figure that out for themselves.

    And lets say its offensive and sexist and all the things without or even with context. It’s a lyric of historical importance and its should be left alone! You can take is as a negative reminder or make what you will but ffs stop the thought policing and censoring things that were there for years without anyone complaining. This SJW stuff has gotten so crazy that its basically used as a insult now, and that on its own is sad be Social Justice would be great if approached differently.

    As far as the plugin goes, said this before but I think there should be a checkbox on WP installation to not install it. Its great so see how a very basic plugin works but as we can see here for many people just just a annoyance. But given this I kind of want to be activated by default for some triggering to occur.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=ZIpkdusnIkE

    But that’s of course my women hating dark sexist, misogynist, racist self speaking. Gonna use my speech until I am dragged into a reeducation camp.

    Report


    1. It really annoys me to see everyone turn SJW nowadays.

      Good. If perspective and empathy are things that annoy you — it’s a signal that you need to work on developing some.

      It seems people in the first world have nothing better to do then getting triggered over some banal things.

      I am from Ukraine. Tell me more about my easy life, first world issues, and overflow of liberalism.

      This SJW stuff has gotten so crazy that its basically used as a insult now

      Oh, it’s not used as insult because it’s crazy. It’s because using insults is easy and, for certain mindsets, is “winning” the conversation by being demeaning to others.

      Not a single person arguing for culture had made a single constructive suggestion in this thread, such as modifying plugin to improve lacking context and increase educational aspect.

      It’s pretty much just a stream of fear of the fact that woman could point this out and people listened to her and acted to fix it. Which from over-the-top this-is-so-trivial-I-must-protest-this-extensively reaction is clearly something many find hugely threatening. Ugh.

      Report


  34. These are actually 2 discussions mixed together: should there be a plugin like Hello Dolly and should those lines be removed.

    Reading the ticket and patch:
    This is only about correcting the text. Removing the plugin is another discussion.

    In the patch the discussed two lines are replaced by more neutral lines and also a few corrections in other lines are made to match the original lyrics.
    The plugin stays intact, the text is just adjusted and replaced.
    No big deal, is it?

    Is it trivial, to get offended by lines like: “Find her a vacant knee, fellas”?

    The point is: it’s not only the two lines here. It’s the constant stream of little pinpricks women get in their life. Some made as a joke, some unmindful. Some too small (trivial?) to complain about.

    But it all adds up to a feeling of not being listened to. Being second grade. Being put in a place we don’t like to be.

    So: if we can take two little pinpricks away so easily, then please let’s do that.

    Report


  35. I’m loving this “discussion!” As WordPress is not my property, and the owner has allowed me to use it for the sum of zero dollars, rather than whine about what doesn’t suit me, I simply uninstall “Hello Dolly” upon installation.

    I don’t object to its bundling any more than I would object to Akismet. After all, as I have said, I do not own the rights to WordPress. :-/ So, it is not for me to demand change, but to make the change.

    Upon reflection, as a nod to the perpetually aggrieved… since “IQ’s have dropped sharply since [Dolly’s] been away” if it were in my power, I would rip out “Hello Dolly,” and replace it with something from Nicki Minaj, more befitting their stellar intellect.

    Report


    1. Ah, the lovely “who the hell are you to speak up” argument and appeal to holy owner authority.

      You know who can speak up about things in WordPress? Anyone.

      Open source and such.

      Report


  36. Maybe the WordPress usage license should be amended to add the clause “WordPress must not be used to produce sites of an offensive nature.” and then we could add a button to WordPress such that the thought police can come along and press that button to instantly ban any site considered unsafe for others to read.

    If you find the plugin offensive, delete it. Take personal responsibility for your own site. Stay out of other people’s sites.

    If you don’t like the plugin and are unwilling to be happy to let others decide for themselves what to install, activate or post into their own sites then just go away and find another CMS to play with. There are many alternative CMS’s out there in the world. You are not forced to use WordPress.

    Get ready for the ‘No SJWs, No Snowflakes’ signs that the majority of us will soon display on our sites. We just don’t need your crap rammed down our throats every second of the day. In fact, why don’t you just install a browser plugin that redacts the phrases and media that trigger you? Surely the simplest option is for you trigger happy people to learn to live with us right-minded people or to stay huddled together in your safe-zones. We are very happy to let you live in blissful ignorance by yourselves provided you stay there and don’t try to ruin life for the rest of us.

    When something leads to physical harm then we need to discuss it.

    When something is both compulsory AND leads to emotional harm then we need to discuss the pros and cons of why it is compulsory.

    But where no harm is done and the elements at issue are not forced onto you then you need to look at yourself and determine what you can do to stop hurting yourself. Do not expect the rest of us to bend to your needs when the problem is within you.

    This puritanism needs to stop. This right-think needs to stop. This I-know-what’s-best-for-everyone authoritarian crap needs to stop. Less moralising, more personal integrity, more respect for others, please.

    Report


    1. Everything offends everyone, Who is to say what’s offensive? That could amount to censorship, that is not what WordPress is based on

      Report


      1. Anything can offend anyone who chooses to be offended by something.

        The rest of what you say is exactly my point.

        Report


  37. Maybe the WordPress usage license should be amended to add the clause “WordPress must not be used to produce sites of an offensive nature.”

    WordPress has quite a long history of enabling any and all kinds of publishing, including extremely disturbing ones and up to getting labeled “a terrorist tool”.

    That doesn’t mean it needs to ship with questionably welcoming content out of the box. By any reasonable logic it should not.

    If you find the plugin offensive, delete it. Take personal responsibility for your own site. Stay out of other people’s sites.

    You are welcome to install the old version of plugin. This argument is completely reversible. You (and quite a few others here) use “don’t tell me what to do” to tell others what to do. It’s bizarre.

    Get ready for the ‘No SJWs, No Snowflakes’ signs that the majority of us will soon display on our sites.

    Oh, won’t it be perfect if that was contained to your sites. Unfortunately this thread seems to be exemplary explanation that getting all bothered about such issues is way more interesting to such types than ignoring “trivial” issues (which they rage at others to ignore, yet somehow unable to ignore themselves).

    This puritanism needs to stop. This right-think needs to stop. This I-know-what’s-best-for-everyone authoritarian crap needs to stop. Less moralising, more personal integrity, more respect for others, please.

    It will not. For better and worse WordPress optimizes for popularity. Maximizing appeal and smoothing out rough edges is indelible part of that direction. That is the project’s idea of integrity and respect. And it’s nothing like your take on those.

    Report


    1. @Rarst. All I pick up from you is “I’m right, everybody else is wrong”.

      Someone above wrote:

      Look at the original tweet. Read the actual post from Jeff. Ignore everyone’s comments except Rarst’s because he really hits the nail on the head! Especially this part “To everyone who declared themselves judges of appropriate levels of drama and triviality in this thread… You know what — it cuts both ways. Your outrage is trivial and insignificant since it comes from a place devoid of perspective and empathy. Your claim to shield this with “culture” is transparent and shallow.”

      Since that comment was posted you have taken it upon yourself to police this comment thread.

      Read the comments. You hold the minority opinion.

      This puritanism needs to stop. This right-think needs to stop. This I-know-what’s-best-for-everyone authoritarian crap needs to stop. Less moralising, more personal integrity, more respect for others, please.

      It will not. For better and worse WordPress optimizes for popularity. Maximizing appeal and smoothing out rough edges is indelible part of that direction. That is the project’s idea of integrity and respect. And it’s nothing like your take on those.

      Within your own words, do you not see your own hypocrisy and overinflated sense of entitlement to speak on behalf of WordPress and all members of its userbase?

      You seem to feel that your right to be offended is greater than everyone else’s right to be offended by puritanism and snowflakeryism. Should this Metric of Offence be volumetric? Is your ego so voluminous it holds more measure than the combined feelings of everyone else? I don’t suppose you see what I’m getting at here but I hope you do one day and that that day is not too late for you to realise where this ‘right to be a victim’ and ‘right to be offended’ is inevitably headed. That basket is crowded as it is, if you see what I mean.

      Report


      1. Since that comment was posted you have taken it upon yourself to police this comment thread.

        I don’t quite see how my participating merits “policing” label.

        If you want a real reason I took to this thread — it was pointed out elsewhere what an ugly swamp of a conversation it was becoming and that it could use some input. I can spare the time.

        Read the comments. You hold the minority opinion.

        Do I now? Yet the change discussed is made and shipped, not to mention my comments are by far most upvoted. :)

        There isn’t more push back here because there are more people holding that opinion. There is more push back because Tavern had been long catering to people thriving on that kind of angry, insulting, destructive “conversation”.

        It washes out other people from participating here and there had been considerable meta discussion about this (not for the first time) that Tavern policies fosters toxic environment which has little to do with actual WP community.

        The “outrage about social justice” does not represent WP community. Listening, making the change, and shipping it does.

        Within your own words, do you not see your own hypocrisy and overinflated sense of entitlement to speak on behalf of WordPress and all members of its userbase?

        I don’t quite follow where do I claim to speak for WordPress? The only things I did was wholeheartedly agree that the issue deserved attention and correction, as well that it was the most reasonable way for it to go, from my experience with the project and how I see it.

        You seem to feel that your right to be offended is greater than everyone else’s right to be offended by puritanism and snowflakeryism.

        I am no victim here and, being a man, the offence was not even aimed at me. What I am is someone who can emphatize with a woman stumbling over that phrase, agree that it is a messy and weird thing to encounter in WP dashboard, and celebrate it getting corrected.

        Report


  38. What offends me is to have Akismet plugin pre-installed in WordPress, a plugin that require to sign up in a paid service.

    Get rid of Akismet too!

    Report


      1. Then, call it freemium, but a paid service at last, and required to register.

        Report


  39. Censorship is typical of the ignorant and uneducated

    Report

Comments are closed.