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Jeffro @chris mccoy – You would think so. I think if you read the GravityForms Terms of Service, doing what GPL Club is doing is not allowed and could cause their account to be suspended or terminated. @Justin Tadlock – Automattic has numerous services that don’t rely on selling either of those things (there are other companies too). If you want developers to break away from selling code, you need to open a serious discussion on alternative business models and step outside of this box that we’ve all been playing in. That’s just it, Services. Once you go the service route, then everything else regarding GPL or code becomes a moot point. As a service, it probably opens up more doors and if you set things up correctly, could make you platform agnostic so you’re not locked into WordPress. I know if I attended Pressnomics this past weekend, I would have a better understanding of all of this but you have an open invitation to publish an article on WPTavern.com that starts the serious discussion on alternative business models. What better stage and feedback mechanism than this site :) Perhaps not always the case, but enough to make it seem like common sense. At the same time though, there are companies like WP HelpCenter and WP SiteCare that exists purely for supporting everyone elses work. So point taken! @Kevin Muldoon – Likewise, I think the way that someone makes money through WordPress is key. If your income is greatly affected by someone forking your project or simply redistributing it, your opinion on GPL is obviously going to be shaped by that. That is true. However, the developers ought to know all of that before going into business instead of complaining about it when it eventually happens. As far as API keys go, I too don’t mind using them to show that I at least purchased a plan to get support but as far as using it to obtain access to services goes, I generally haven’t had a problem. I use a lot of services that need an API key or WordPress.com connection and I haven’t discovered any major problems but then again we’re talking about WordPress.com infrastructure here. No guarantee that joe schmoe will have that kind of setup. It sure as hell would be annoying to use a service that is integral to your site that is continuously going offline. Then we would be clamoring for that functionality to be within the plugin. Another one of those vicious circles! I knew 100% going into writing this post that the notion of free GPL code would either piss people off or wouldn’t fly. I’ve been around the community too long to know that would ever happen but when writing this post, I thought it was an interesting perspective worth talking about. The license says you can charge for GPL code and in fact, encourages people to do so. So as long as that’s in the language, people will charge for GPL code and that’s just the way it is. @Justin Tadlock – Either way, we don’t make much progress talking about ethics or morals when it comes to GPL, code, and WordPress. @Chip Bennett – heh, no offense taken. It’s not that the code loses its intrinsic value based on the license under which it was distributed. It was the thought that code that has a price tag can be easily redistributed with no price tag and if enough of that code is distributed in that manner, then it seems stupid to pay for it. Not sure if that makes more sense. I have no plans to turn into Stallman anytime soon, so breath a sigh of relief lol. If developers were forced to release their code for free, then sites like GPL club or WP Avengers would then be the ones with the high price tags, if we used the current scenario. However, if the code those two sites are redistributing is free anyways, than GPL club and WP Avengers look even more like con artists and are gaining nothing by being around. Then the only way they can make money is by selling support for those products at a cheaper rate than the developer or as Justin pointed out, make a club that pulls in the updates. @Brent Shepherd – I like the idea of making software accessible, so I have experimented with releasing software free and funding it’s improvement by selling support (via bbBolt) and even crowd-funding on-going development. I confused customers so much on both accounts, I gave up on the idea and just started charging a simple price for everything, something everyone understands. I totally understand that. In fact I mentioned that in the post as to why developers don’t just charge for support and updates seperate of getting access to the code. It would cause confusion. Might as well package it all into one price. Most don’t know or care about the GPL, and there are a very small minority will exercise those freedoms in a way that can be detrimental to the continued improvement of the software. This statement has been made years ago when the initial GPL debates around commercial themes were taking place. I think it still holds true today. The customer just wants a product to function with great support and updates at a price they can afford. The license is just fluff and probably not a purchasing decision. Rather than spending time paying attention to the latest entrant to the “commercial code for a reduced price” space, I spend my time answering questions and adding new features requested by those who did pay for it. Customers seem to like that, and Subscriptions continues to sell, so I keep providing support, fixing bugs and adding new features. I think you have a great head on your shoulders and this is the route many developers should take. Thanks for taking the time to participate in the discussion. @donnacha – There is no shortage of people willing to buy code! Even your shitty comments are good reads! @Carl Hancock – I always appreciate hearing from those in the trenches of WordPress business. Damn shame I couldn’t attend Pressnomics this year but I’ll be first in line next year! There is more that goes on than just updates. In the case of Gravity Forms there is going to be much more SaaS functionality that will be coming that will simply not work unless you have an API key to interact with our API. Functionality that will make the product more reliable and solve some of the primary support issues we must deal with on a daily basis caused by issues out of our control. We’re going to take control of them. SaaS is going to allow us to do so. In talks with others through the grapevine, this direction doesn’t surprise me at all. In fact, a lot of people are surprised that GForms didn’t do this sooner. Can you confirm or deny that at some point in the future, all of the functionality found within the Gravity Forms plugin will exist on a site and no longer be in the plugin? If so, then all this GPL crap has no more meaning for you and now, GForms has been opened up to a lot more sites as it could become platform agnostic. Sounds to me like the groundwork for that is being laid. @Troy Dean – What do you mean hoo-haa about it? No one has an issue paying for GPL code. I’m not demanding developers release their code for free. I was just throwing out a point of view and simply asking questions that commercial developers would be able to answer. Large organisations like Automattic have the luxury of having raised funding and a lot of staff to run VIP services and generate revenue at a scale that even the big plugin and theme shops can’t so it’s viable for them to give away GPL code. As I mentioned to someone else, I think it’s unfair to mention services and giving away code in the same sentence. Once you’re a service, distribution is non-existent. So what code are those services giving away? Having just returned home to Melbourne from WordCamp Europe and Pressnomics, I must say I think there are bigger conversations we should be having. I extend the same invitation to you as I did to Justin Tadlock. WPTavern can be used as your stage if you want to start or get those “larger conversations” started. I have no idea what those conversations are so it would be a learning experience for me. @Ulrich – Well, I hear that all the time but I highly doubt that would ever become a reality. People would disappear faster than going through support if developers intentionally left bugs in their software so people would purchase support packages. Those developers would get a bad reputation very quickly as well. http://www.wpsitecare.com/ and until recently, WPHelpCenter so there’s a way to make money! I want to thank everyone for stopping by and answering the questions I put forth in this post. I learned a couple things through reading your comments. This will be one for the archives!
Jeffro
@chris mccoy – You would think so. I think if you read the GravityForms Terms of Service, doing what GPL Club is doing is not allowed and could cause their account to be suspended or terminated.
@Justin Tadlock –
Automattic has numerous services that don’t rely on selling either of those things (there are other companies too). If you want developers to break away from selling code, you need to open a serious discussion on alternative business models and step outside of this box that we’ve all been playing in.
That’s just it, Services. Once you go the service route, then everything else regarding GPL or code becomes a moot point. As a service, it probably opens up more doors and if you set things up correctly, could make you platform agnostic so you’re not locked into WordPress.
I know if I attended Pressnomics this past weekend, I would have a better understanding of all of this but you have an open invitation to publish an article on WPTavern.com that starts the serious discussion on alternative business models. What better stage and feedback mechanism than this site :)
Perhaps not always the case, but enough to make it seem like common sense. At the same time though, there are companies like WP HelpCenter and WP SiteCare that exists purely for supporting everyone elses work. So point taken!
@Kevin Muldoon –
Likewise, I think the way that someone makes money through WordPress is key. If your income is greatly affected by someone forking your project or simply redistributing it, your opinion on GPL is obviously going to be shaped by that.
That is true. However, the developers ought to know all of that before going into business instead of complaining about it when it eventually happens. As far as API keys go, I too don’t mind using them to show that I at least purchased a plan to get support but as far as using it to obtain access to services goes, I generally haven’t had a problem. I use a lot of services that need an API key or WordPress.com connection and I haven’t discovered any major problems but then again we’re talking about WordPress.com infrastructure here. No guarantee that joe schmoe will have that kind of setup.
It sure as hell would be annoying to use a service that is integral to your site that is continuously going offline. Then we would be clamoring for that functionality to be within the plugin. Another one of those vicious circles!
I knew 100% going into writing this post that the notion of free GPL code would either piss people off or wouldn’t fly. I’ve been around the community too long to know that would ever happen but when writing this post, I thought it was an interesting perspective worth talking about. The license says you can charge for GPL code and in fact, encourages people to do so. So as long as that’s in the language, people will charge for GPL code and that’s just the way it is.
@Justin Tadlock – Either way, we don’t make much progress talking about ethics or morals when it comes to GPL, code, and WordPress.
@Chip Bennett – heh, no offense taken. It’s not that the code loses its intrinsic value based on the license under which it was distributed. It was the thought that code that has a price tag can be easily redistributed with no price tag and if enough of that code is distributed in that manner, then it seems stupid to pay for it. Not sure if that makes more sense.
I have no plans to turn into Stallman anytime soon, so breath a sigh of relief lol. If developers were forced to release their code for free, then sites like GPL club or WP Avengers would then be the ones with the high price tags, if we used the current scenario. However, if the code those two sites are redistributing is free anyways, than GPL club and WP Avengers look even more like con artists and are gaining nothing by being around. Then the only way they can make money is by selling support for those products at a cheaper rate than the developer or as Justin pointed out, make a club that pulls in the updates.
@Brent Shepherd –
I like the idea of making software accessible, so I have experimented with releasing software free and funding it’s improvement by selling support (via bbBolt) and even crowd-funding on-going development. I confused customers so much on both accounts, I gave up on the idea and just started charging a simple price for everything, something everyone understands.
I totally understand that. In fact I mentioned that in the post as to why developers don’t just charge for support and updates seperate of getting access to the code. It would cause confusion. Might as well package it all into one price.
Most don’t know or care about the GPL, and there are a very small minority will exercise those freedoms in a way that can be detrimental to the continued improvement of the software.
This statement has been made years ago when the initial GPL debates around commercial themes were taking place. I think it still holds true today. The customer just wants a product to function with great support and updates at a price they can afford. The license is just fluff and probably not a purchasing decision.
Rather than spending time paying attention to the latest entrant to the “commercial code for a reduced price” space, I spend my time answering questions and adding new features requested by those who did pay for it. Customers seem to like that, and Subscriptions continues to sell, so I keep providing support, fixing bugs and adding new features.
I think you have a great head on your shoulders and this is the route many developers should take. Thanks for taking the time to participate in the discussion.
@donnacha – There is no shortage of people willing to buy code! Even your shitty comments are good reads!
@Carl Hancock – I always appreciate hearing from those in the trenches of WordPress business. Damn shame I couldn’t attend Pressnomics this year but I’ll be first in line next year!
There is more that goes on than just updates. In the case of Gravity Forms there is going to be much more SaaS functionality that will be coming that will simply not work unless you have an API key to interact with our API. Functionality that will make the product more reliable and solve some of the primary support issues we must deal with on a daily basis caused by issues out of our control. We’re going to take control of them. SaaS is going to allow us to do so.
In talks with others through the grapevine, this direction doesn’t surprise me at all. In fact, a lot of people are surprised that GForms didn’t do this sooner. Can you confirm or deny that at some point in the future, all of the functionality found within the Gravity Forms plugin will exist on a site and no longer be in the plugin? If so, then all this GPL crap has no more meaning for you and now, GForms has been opened up to a lot more sites as it could become platform agnostic. Sounds to me like the groundwork for that is being laid.
@Troy Dean – What do you mean hoo-haa about it? No one has an issue paying for GPL code. I’m not demanding developers release their code for free. I was just throwing out a point of view and simply asking questions that commercial developers would be able to answer.
Large organisations like Automattic have the luxury of having raised funding and a lot of staff to run VIP services and generate revenue at a scale that even the big plugin and theme shops can’t so it’s viable for them to give away GPL code.
As I mentioned to someone else, I think it’s unfair to mention services and giving away code in the same sentence. Once you’re a service, distribution is non-existent. So what code are those services giving away?
Having just returned home to Melbourne from WordCamp Europe and Pressnomics, I must say I think there are bigger conversations we should be having.
I extend the same invitation to you as I did to Justin Tadlock. WPTavern can be used as your stage if you want to start or get those “larger conversations” started. I have no idea what those conversations are so it would be a learning experience for me.
@Ulrich – Well, I hear that all the time but I highly doubt that would ever become a reality. People would disappear faster than going through support if developers intentionally left bugs in their software so people would purchase support packages. Those developers would get a bad reputation very quickly as well. http://www.wpsitecare.com/ and until recently, WPHelpCenter so there’s a way to make money!
I want to thank everyone for stopping by and answering the questions I put forth in this post. I learned a couple things through reading your comments. This will be one for the archives!
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