welcome everybody to episode 356 of
WordPress weekly for Wednesday June 12th
2019
I'm your host Jeff Chandler joined by
mr. John James Jacoby. how you doing sir
hello good great how are you doing
pretty good
doing pretty good I'm on the health
train choo-choo baby I'm rolling along
although I cheated last weekend I had
some rums and cokes
on Saturday but that was it I'm back on
the health train I'm drinking water again
right here for the viewers I'm not cheating on the show like
I did last week hello it's good to be on
American Progress it's a good train to
be on and you as a connoisseur of trains
should appreciate the train that you are
on Jeff yes that's right just gonna make
sure it doesn't derail that's her hey
good that happened by you didn't wasn't
there didn't the train derails yeah oh
hi Oh somewhere yes yes so and I also
followed through and I made an
appointment with the doctor for next
Thursday to get my numbers so I'm
looking and I got some new glasses
you're talking about that before the
show glasses uh classes are important to
we'll talk with Johnny a little bit
about that later but believe it or not
it really helps to see doesn't really
help with the monitor that's right in
front of me up here are you near-sighted
or farsighted or what's what's your deal
well I mean I need them for nighttime
and to see things at a distance I see
it's amazing how well you could see with
new classes of my other classes after
four years were just covered in
scratches and when the Sun shone on them
it was refracting into my eyes you know
and when you're going to I I didn't know
this but nowadays they get this thing
called I don't map so we go in used to
get the the puffs blown into your eyes
but now you just stare into this machine
in this bright green light like alien
thing takes a detailed picture in the
back of your eye and you could see the
picture and you can see all the details
of of your corner and your retinol and
retinyl should say that retinol that's a
different area of the body but but you
civilians and all that stuff and I found
that my that my eyes are healthy pretty
much it for one spot in the vein you
just see there's blood that came outside
the vein and it could have been from the
episode I had on Sunday but she
recommended I go see doctor because it
could be from high blood pressure so I
guess they can see all these different
health things in your eyes before they
actually turn up in the rest of your
body so I thought it was cool and it
said I hated that puff thing the puff
thing is no good carry really hates that
too and I've been with being photo
phobic the bright light just makes my
eyes explode I basically have to open
dreamy eye with my fingers to keep it
open because I can't stand the pain of
the bright light in my eye that was the
first time I mean I was the one when I
first got classes is like 12 or 13 years
old
that was when I learned what photophobia
was and I was like I didn't know that
everybody's eyes didn't like hurt
excruciating ly in the mornings and at
bright light and things but you know
yeah that's the the same thing with the
octo map was like oh you have a slight
astigmatism and one of your eyes like
well how else do you know that without
them measuring and mapping it out yeah
it was just cool to see my eye in that
kind of detail yeah it's cool nose that
was neat so let's see here we've got a
lot to talk about today it's more or
less gonna be a general conversation
with the gentleman who is katroo Bernini
who's sort of in the trenches
contributing the different aspects of
WordPress core and various projects his
name is Johnny Harris and he's been
developing websites for over 10 years
now he is most known for his open source
contributions to WordPress core as
maintainer of WordPress multi-site as
well as building and maintaining a
number of key plugins and I believe he
owns and operates the agency spaced
monkey comm Johnny thanks for joining us
hey guys and as I understand it you're
across the pond right now what time is
it for you right now and and you get
that cool British accent oh I love
people who have accents on this show I
don't have one no you don't we do we do
Phil the Midwestern accent quota of the
show with Jeff and I so it is refreshing
to have somebody else that doesn't just
sound like the two of us on the show
yeah so let's start off with Johnny how
did you first get involved with
WordPress tell us a bit about your
origin story so I've been using
WordPress since I think it was 1.5 I
needed a blog for my personal stuff this
is like 2005-2006 back when plugin was
cool yeah it's coming back baby I mean
was it ever really that cool but uh but
I yeah I really wanted I was upset with
RSS feeds so I wanted something that
would generate an RSS feed for me so I
installed WordPress and yeah like that
was 15 years ago and I kind of haven't
looked back since
I just did my degree in computer
networking to be a sysadmin like to be
to build networks and I was still doing
all this WordPress stuff from the side
and just loving it and then when I
graduated I was like right I want to
make a career out of this
which was probably the worst time to
graduate was 2009 and it was the
economic crisis and everyone closed all
of their intern programs and everything
was shut down I was like really
stressing out about it I was like I was
unemployed for six months building
WordPress stuff and eventually an agency
gave me a chance but they didn't
actually hire me as a wordpress
developer I was writing Java CMS's for
the first two years of my career and
like you get to understand the other
side of it when you're building for
spoken jarvan systems and java is really
on an unforgiving language and like I
just kept saying to my bosses like come
on guys like there's this thing called
WordPress like all of this connecting to
databases
templating you know the WYSIWYG that's
all just there like you get that over
free that let's do this
they did not listen to me for the first
two years like I don't use custom things
and eventually a client wanted one at a
wordpress site and they okay yeah
finally
we'll give this to Joanie's you shut him
up and the build was they'd respected
out to take two months to build
I'd do it in two weeks and then they
were like
we get why you were saying there's
wordpress things actually something you
do and i like burnt through two years of
their backlog in like maybe four or five
months and yeah the agency master we
took up took off after that when i left
there was twelve developers working
underneath me and i was like 25 i was
like this is way too much responsibility
for a 25 year old to have I'm like
staying to 8:00 o'clock my work-life
balance is a nightmare like hell no so
I've had to get a new challenge so I
joined time so Time Inc UK at the time
they the biggest magazine publisher in
the UK the parent company time obviously
as Time magazine and a bunch of other
stuff that you've probably read and
heard of and that was like out of the
frying pan into the fire like I went
from at this small small agency where I
was like so I was like yeah I know what
I'm doing I'm doing custom post types
this is cool and it was like right now
you have to like scale this to billions
of requests and you have to learn about
memcache clusters and shredding
databases and like I AK fully panicked I
was like I'm a fraud I don't know what
I'm doing
so I like for three months locked myself
away and like learn
scaling cashing like all these internals
of WordPress like so so deeply just so I
didn't feel like a fraud at work
basically and then I was like I probably
should do something with this knowledge
now I've spent like three months of my
life eyes bleeding just constantly
reading all this stuff this like five
years ago
there's more resources online now but
had to scale WordPress but at the time
it was like it was it was kind of secret
sauce like witchcraft er how you how you
scale this stuff and the project I was
working on was was a multi-site at the
time like my site was not in a great
place
like it was a lot of inconsistencies and
weird bugs and you really had to like
like understand it and understand its
quirks and
is back and month I say it was its own
separate thing uh five years ago this
was like around my first release was
contributing was like three it was
probably merged by then I think it was
2010 when I got when they got all
together so yeah that's merged by then I
was still clunky and quirky and weird
but uh but getting better in a better
direction but yeah not real great yeah
so I was I started going to the
multi-site meetings and I was I was
using a little-known feature of multi
site which is multi networks again if
you think multi site was quirky like
Admiralty networks on top of that
because it's just like massively hidden
feature that again earning me and John
sort of know about and massively care
about but yeah like when my first
patches was was I think two thousand
lines of code which most people's first
patch is like a small tiny little thing
and I didn't realize how big of a deal
then he was that I added this my first
patch was this massive thing which was
the net network options this is what I
was the first thing I added so you could
call network options on different
networks and I just kind of got the bug
from there like big my next big thing I
did was the site query a site and
network queries added them into core and
like yeah like over the last like three
four years massively rewritten chunks of
that and just got rid of so much
inconsistency and all these edge cases
and there's now unit test for us all
this stuff and yeah motifs like this in
such a better place now it's had a lot
of love also like Felix joined it so
it's in no time to me and we're both
along with John and Jeremy and yeah
other British John we're all been main
turning it but it's such a massive
component and it's so important to so
many people's businesses like mmm
miss WordPress comm with the hundred
million blogs in it but like I I meet
people when I'm out and about and it's
like oh yeah I've got a hundred thousand
blogs on my movie site and I'm like
I've never even heard of this like
ingress people people are using it to
such an amazing scale like and I did not
publicize because a lot of them are in
the enterprise space a lot of the
education space and they don't sort of
publicize themselves as well as other
sort of businesses that are using my
website so was I on VIP when you were at
time I don't remember much from that
long ago anymore
did we intersect when you were there
working on that or no no things I cuz I
can remember you I can remember you
using a multi-site and I remember seeing
stuff come in from you from that long
ago but I don't remember from where that
happened
yeah so I was one of the one of the
stigmas for WordPress you know since the
beginning no we're talking about way
back in the days of getting the Digg
affect the reddit effect whatever effect
there was stumble upon somebody stumbles
your site and your site would end up
turning into a white screen of death and
WordPress about this reputation back in
the day that it was a terrible platform
that it didn't scale that it couldn't
handle massive traffic spikes what can
you say with regards to that stigma
because apparently you've worked in an
environment where it's obviously not
true yes so the big thing when I was
working at time was we were self hosting
at in AWS so a lot of times when people
want to scale WordPress they just sort
of throw it at automatic with their VIP
platforms yeah you had VIP just
installer here shim plugin in that'll
solve everything and again that was that
feeling of being a fraud if not not
knowing how to scale WordPress properly
there when people ask me about scaling
and caching in WordPress there there
isn't a single solution for it is the
honest answer the question I look like
it's easy to say all ghosts install w3
total cache it's like well then that
doesn't a lot of time that doesn't
really get to the root cause of where
your your problems are and like all the
tools that I've bill
mean jonov worked on ludicrous DB
together which is a plug-in allowed you
to spread your database your date your
database tables across multiple database
servers I've built various caching
plugins you know this answer is you need
to look at the traffic that's heading
towards your site and understand where
the pain points are and use very
specialized tools to fix the problems
that you have you shouldn't just throw
lots of servers at it you shouldn't just
install these generic caching plugins
you should really take the time to
understand that which is why a lot of
the plugins that I have are not on the
plug-in repo because I feel like they're
more developer tools and they're all on
github that they don't have a UI they're
not sort of for your average punter
they're for people that are really
taking WordPress and putting it to its
limits
mm-hm but I like where quest has come a
long way and like the now that we're on
PHP 712 PHP 5.6 now and PHP 7 like we're
gonna start to see these like these leap
forwards in in the code quality and
speed of these applications I think yeah
I think that's like that's gonna be the
biggest leap forward I feel like it's
not just a thing that will affect
developers using it it will affect users
that are using it they'll see that
performance and that's one of the things
that initially surprised me is in math
showed this in one of the state of the
word presentations about the move to PHP
7 and how the performance increased I
mean if if you're like for instance the
tavern was running in a an older
instance of PHP and we bumped it up we
talked to our web host we had a bumped
up to PHP 7 point whatever and boom no
we immediately noticed an increase by
doing nothing except upgrading PHP it
was a wonderful thing yeah I mean
getting PHP upgrade is something I've
been really passionate about there's a
core team called a core PHP and I've
been part of that for a while we worked
on the white screen of death protection
white screen your death protection was
basically to allow us host to move
upgrade users and they they could in
handle issues because lots of plugins
were were written with five two in mind
and they could they could break your
site so the white eared s might have
seen like kind of like a nice feature
for users which obviously is but it was
primarily the prerequisite for us to
move off php5 to to fight song dead
seven it's interesting you bring it up
because you know for so many years now
we've been you know there's been so many
people Tim campaigning for WordPress to
do something to use its clout to
motivate these hosts to move the
requirements of the sites running our
WordPress to PHP seven but it's very
interesting to bring it up that that the
white screen of death in the site health
protection mechanisms built in a
wordpress was actually sort of the sort
of the safety net to allow hosts to get
these sites upgraded yeah when we worked
quite closely with the hosting companies
to to make sure those features would
work well for them
I mean for example there's like a button
to say upgrade your PHP version and
that's still trouble so the idea is that
that you know you're the advice update
PHP by default takes you to what the
dogs website but it could be filtered to
take it to your own custom marketing if
you're on I don't know GoDaddy or
something and it would link to their
custom page about this so we did we'd
massively had hosts in mind I and the
secret is like host you want to be on
PHP seven like it costs them less to
host it on PHP server because it takes
less resources and like it generally
it's a good thing for them but it's the
smaller house where it's a problem
because if you know in the pre pre you
know creating the dark days before you
know docker containers and all these new
shiny things we have now to manage what
we're instance there's a lot of a lot of
well shared hosting is literally a
server in a back room somewhere and it's
not really making them he's going to
the more money than it would than they
would get to upgrade it so they didn't
they don't see any good reason to
upgrade it's gonna cost them a lot of
money to upgrade it but with this tool
we said right we'll handle the fatal
errors so you have no excuse to not just
literally just lift and shift everyone
off onto new servers it also is a
massively and user empowering like
things like it allows people to fix
their own problems I think that's so
there's a nice message for the community
to be like WordPress isn't is sort of
secret sauce you can work it out like
WordPress is inclusive like I got into
web development because I started
mucking around building my own little
blog and I wanted a cool sidebar and
that's how I learnt by hacking and this
white death is is is that because we're
along with whites going to death you get
the recovery mode the recovery mode
allows you to it under the hood detects
the plug-in that that plug-in or theme
that broke and pauses it for you so you
can login deactivate here up there do
what you haven't whatever you need to do
and fix your own problems yeah it says
that's a beautiful feature because for
all these years once you get the way
screen of death unless you have FTP
access you're Sol yeah you're done and
perhaps that you and the team for
putting that stuff together and giving
these implemented in the WordPress so
tell us a little bit about the sort of
the implementation and maybe with the
thought process behind the health check
and some of the tests that are involved
did you work in that area a little bit
yeah so again that was but that was that
was even more influenced by the the
hosts and it's the idea of like like so
it for those that don't know there's a
there's a new screen in five two and it
basically does some sort primitive
checks to check your PHP version your
MySQL version and then we have like a
recommended version numbers and when it
configurations and it will get
you know traffic light you know red
yellow green of what what is perceived
is good and that will over time will
obviously change one nice thing about
that as well is it was it has filters so
I hope going forward the plugins will
also add their own health checks into
that so for example like jetpack you
have the jetpack connection they could
easily filter in a is is connected to
jetpack or you know
Huggins that you interview like
elasticsearch could have is the last
expense can actually working all that
sort of stuff yeah I mean we've already
seen plugins like jetpack implement
their own set of tests into the State
Health say test area oh I didn't see
that that's awesome though yeah you you
build these tools and you never you hope
people didn't use them but yeah that is
awesome
i I personally open a ticket for ten ups
elastic press I want them to add a
setting in there for that as well yeah
so that's so that is again that was part
of all part of the rollout plan for for
PHP and again that was a prerequisite to
try and help users Jennie Wong and and
some people have been running sort of
what they're called but they're like
basically genius bars but for people's
websites at word camps to to help do
help like health checks but happiness
happiness bar that's what it is
I'm sure Genius Bar is probably
copyright protected on apples in a
compress for that well the show yeah can
I do to really quick but the yeah yeah
they were doing that in person and the
idea was like well we can't fix
everyone's website can't because
everyone's lives like this never comes
to work camps so this really needs to be
part of court yeah I didn't I wasn't
directly working on that but I that it
was all part of the PHP upgrade plan now
in that area of WordPress is nice
because especially when it comes to
troubleshooting because we usually would
have to use some type of plug-in in
order to
did information for us and incopy that
and send it to the host or send it to
whoever now it's just with the site
check test it sits right there on a page
in an easily digestible readable format
uh house I was running the test on a
website on v 2 after he upgraded and it
said a website came up to be about 78%
healthy so what I did was I installed a
plug-in I can disable test and it's
there but all the ones I failed so I got
to 100% now I didn't have to worry about
it okay then the test we're gonna we're
looking at hooking into it for easy
digital downloads affiliate WP restrict
content Pro sugar calendar all those
things because each one of them has
their own their own settings tools
utilities check in kind of page that we
use for support like our support team
really needs to know what versions of
PHP MySQL or anything else that they're
running and having to reroll that same
UI into every single plug-in to do that
to get that support info has worked okay
for a couple of years now and but
everyone is really happy I'm looking
forward to there being some built into
WordPress core solution because it sure
beats having to re-implement that whole
thing over and over again well it also
decentralizes it as well like you don't
have to like dig around your settings
panels to try and find it but i know i
go to that page i can see it in one
thing mmm i know i think there's going
to be more i forsee core doing more
checks as well I know the Gutenberg team
were quite interested in having some
text in there to make sure that the
JavaScript could access the API and so
that and that was working as well so
yeah there are more more parts of core
that will probably add all those things
in so the one thing that I want to try
and use them for is like for plugins
that are bigger the BBS or EDD or like
and any of them that have custom
database tables is just to be able to
defer or have some UI some central place
to be able to say that like an upgrade
happened or
what version of a database is something
on or in because there were years where
we didn't do database upgrades on BB
pressed org simply because it would have
taken so much time to re-indict things
on the users tables on WordPress that
order things were like you kind of just
had to know that it was pinned to a very
specific revision or version to a
prevent those things from happening
because it didn't really make a whole
lot of sense to expose that in a UI but
now that their times have changed and
there is a page now it just makes a lot
more sense to be able to plug those
things into someplace that two people
can stop tripping over it so it is
really exciting feature
speaking of Gutenberg what what areas
have you contributed to with the with
the editor in overall what's your what
your thoughts and opinions on this being
the direction and future of word of
content authoring and WordPress so I've
read a few places I've been mostly
contributing to the RFC so they have
been putting out recently I've also put
in a bit of code
speaking of sort of messaging and stuff
one of the things so like when one bug
that really kind of annoys me is like
when you click Save and something goes
wrong all it says is update failed and
it gives you no information why it
failed but we have an API and the API
gives you a nice message of why it went
wrong so I want to return that to the
user and generally I think messaging and
error handling is something that could
break I could do a little bit better
it's just an easy one to bring out but
thankfully the cheat know messages for
the most part I've been addressed in
WordPress yeah otherwise yeah I've been
one of the things I've been contributing
to is the migration there's a plan plans
to move widgets to blocks and they are
an RFC about that
yeah I've posted quite a lot about this
publicly on Twitter I'm not sure I'm a
massive fan of the current direction
going for I don't think it really like
the plan basically if you didn't read it
was to when a user comes to the widget
screen after the widget screens been
replaced by the new Gutenberg based
blocks it will take the existing blocks
and in the client migrate them to blocks
and then they can edit them via blocks
but what and each side bar would be one
post with lots of different blocks in it
I said well that that kind is kind of
limiting say for saving all of the
widgets in one post one of the things I
was fighting for was saving each block
in a single post is once you have each
what was a widget is it so important
stuff you can do with with these new
widget blocks like you could have
revisions for each block each widget
you'll have authors you can have
scheduled blocks that appear in your
sidebar so you could have a block that
appears on Christmas Day just says happy
Christmas or you could have something
that appears on Black Friday that it's
an amazing deal but yeah that so I spent
like over 12 hours commenting on that
RFC and posting comments and how dare
girl so the editor team said the there's
too many comments on this so we're just
going to approve it and merge it so I
was like well and I was like I quite
honestly I've freed my toys out the pram
I was really upset about that I was like
well that's 12 hours of my life just
just gone just gone like but by like I
don't understand when you have a hundred
eighty one comments on a pull request
what sane person says yeah that's good
enough to merge see the legit
janay it is a request for comments is an
RFC they're asking for feedback yes the
crushing irony is that they didn't want
comment on a request for comments great
we're expecting more than a hundred I
don't know to me if I had 180 comments
on a poor quest I'd be like why it's
time to go back to the drawing board
let's close this and come back with
something that the audit that the that
everyone's going to be happy with
because clearly it's not and like just
because I was seen as a bit of a
troublemaker that I'm constantly saying
no and that I can't I can apparently
come off as quite negative online if you
speak to me in person I'm a really
positive and happy guy like I seem okay
on the show like I just because
sometimes I I'm on Twitter or on these
poor requests or whatever like seen
seeming like I'm cranky I'm not and I
love what was I love I love the
community but like I am also not afraid
to to say when there's something's not
right and I don't think the current
plans for for widgets to blocks it's
gonna work for it's gonna work for you
know somebody who's got a little blog
I've where that concise I've had a four
hundred widgets on them 400 plus widgets
on them and in client migrations like
literally in the browser moving that
data across it's just not gonna work
like when your wedding water hungary
widgets oh oh yeah i mean wow so a lot
of widgets the reason we had that was
because we had lots of hub pages and you
could build your own hub page page had
had like 12 widget areas in it and each
one had ten in and you'd have like
whatever you looked very 700 for
different reasons so yeah he went up a
lot of widgets a lot of widget areas so
to manage that migration we need tools
to do that need WPI scripts we need some
sort of migration that happens
you know on the WordPress upgrades and
done in such a way that doesn't make
your screen
time out so we will need some type of
migration script that would run in the
background unfortunately web press
doesn't really have a sort of background
task thing that we can do that it has
these long running tasks but we could do
for example when the terms but happened
that happened in chunks so what it did
was like it migrated 50 at a time on a
on a scheduled task and then set another
one another scheduled event for one
minute in the future and did it like
that like leapfrog until you were done
and that's probably how I would have
done though well I hope it would be Doo
done with the widgets two blocks
migration but again it's all up in the
air and I'm not really sure where that's
been left it was approved and wasn't
actually merged so I don't know what's
happening with that for what it's worth
I would I went through most of your
comments I know you spent 12 hours
writing them but I spent probably an
hour reading them because they're there
in probably won't be too much of a
surprise to the listeners that are
people that know that you know Johnny
and I both work on multi-site spends a
lot of time working side-by-side on
different things that I completely agree
that like the UN quarto China would
agree with another job of course right
like you left the comments that I didn't
have to like it was nice to see that
someone else was kind of thinking the
same direction that I was thinking with
it because WordPress has posts and posts
are hierarchical if we want them to be
but we also have taxonomy x' and we have
terms and term meta and that's what you
use to relate things together if a
sidebar is a term then the widgets are
posts like it feels very obvious and
linear that that is how you would do
those things and the problem and the
frustration that I have with it is
similar to the one that I have with
Gutenberg so in each of the blocks in
the one big blob in the content is that
we could have easily related these
things together but what happens is we
have sort of a newer generation of
contributors that are building software
the way they know how with what's
familiar to them which is something that
frankly I think most of us are guilty of
at some time in our careers of like this
is how I know
how to attack this problem and so I am
going to solve this problem the only way
I know how which is really difficult to
like stop someone from doing what they
are going to do anyways like if Jeff
wants to have a cheat day Jeff's gonna
have a cheat day right now that you're
doing alright
that is just what's gonna happen and so
when there are people that like want
widgets to work a certain way they're
gonna ask for your feedback but they
don't there it doesn't it's not gonna
change anything because they want to
solve that problem with the code that
they wrote to solve a similar problem
previously like that's what I think
honestly frankly like on my own stupid
rant on the show like is what tends to
separate like like thoroughly deeply
experienced problem solving engineers
from like people that are different at
getting stuff done
like I like implementers right well in
like a Pippin and I have joked because
like Pippin is really good at shipping
stuff and then like that like successful
things things that people like and enjoy
and thoroughly enjoy using but then like
you know he has a staff of people that
get to iterate on it and improve it and
clean it up
and so there's also another part of me
like 50% that gets that like them
solving this problem this way is gonna
create five more years of work for other
people to clean up what the first
version of this was and so like the nice
thing about you leaving comments and
having there be an RFC and and posting
those things is that people are able to
take your thoughts and ideas and
opinions and you could do it yourself if
you have the time but anyone can take
the ball and run with it
like when when this approach doesn't
work anymore or doesn't scale or isn't
really yielding the results that
everyone had hoped for at least you're
able to dig through all of the history
of the comments and be able to say like
this is how we could have architected it
and we still should probably do that
going forward so like don't feel
hopefully Johnny like your comments
aren't valued because I value them but I
think that time usually tells that the
the right approach isn't always the
it's not always the hardest one or the
easiest one there is kind of a in
between and so them shipping and getting
it done is their own version of moving
the ball forward and we can iterate on
it and improve it over time
same with multi-site right like
multi-site got the job done it made
wordpress.com what it is it made org
what it is and we're able to live with
it we hate it maybe a little bit every
once in a while but we're able to live
with it and then kind of improve it over
time which is something that like I
struggle with I like to take my time and
build it right and get it right but it
doesn't it's like one of the Linux
philosophies like it doesn't do anybody
any good if people are using it and
people gotta be comfortable using it
first and then once it's popular and
people are happy whether you can always
improve it at any point so but I
appreciate you leaving those comments I
was I agree with you 100%
I already do appreciate that but like
it's hard not to feel like I was doing
that in a vacuum like I was screaming
into the void because like I got some
people messaging me privately and I felt
like I was tweeting about it a lot and
it's going this isn't right like come on
guys can can thing people get involved
because this is directly affect them I
was I was really surprised by the number
of people that just kind of sat back and
went yeah that's that Johnny sought this
out like I'm like that takes a toll on
me like it was it was my straying and
like when they're just when the coop
boat team who are nice people and I've
spoken to them I just say no no no and
not really even giving me a reason or
feedback why just because you know when
you've got a hammer all your problems
and nails right so that they blocks work
this way in post so they should work the
same way everywhere else I guess that
I'm having the same argument again with
navigation so the navigation block
they're going to store all of those
navigation items in HTML comments as a
JSON blog and then that navigation block
will be the navigation for the site
because eventually everything will be
blocks
that is not been again I've worked on
massive WordPress sites where you've had
200 menu items massively nested
massively insane menus that is not going
to scale in that in HTML comments the
reason they're in hating my comments in
the first place was backwards
compatibility it's not it no one thought
oh this is a great way to do this as
Jason's days and comments like in HTML
comments you can switch between the
classic editor and Guttenberg without it
being wrong this just HTML comment the
classic editors take knows it and it's
fine but the second you try and take
that weird back schematic a decision and
then force it on other parts of core it
just doesn't it doesn't make any sense
mm-hmm everything else is built as
custom post types you've even got stuff
like the the customizer change sets
that's a custom post type under the hood
like everything is custom post types and
taxonomies why why are we breaking out
of that paradigm that's how we as
developers use WordPress custom post
types well it did drives me a little
crazy too I mean like to the I get that
like the WordPress is database schema is
not always necessarily the most flexible
even though I think like WordPress got a
lot right like not to be a spoiler from
my own word can't be Europe talk or
anything but like if it kind of feels
like instead of like the the the
avoidance of building a proper database
table to store all of this stuff has
meant that it just gets like pre
compiled into a blob and thrown into the
content like it's kind of just like
folks have given up trying frankly like
this is kind of relatively simple
database architecture for just designing
something than the way that you need to
query it and store it and then trying to
build in some future flexibility if you
need it and like the we can it's pretty
flexible with taxonomy 'z and meta and
posts and everything like it's kind of
okay but there are places where it just
doesn't fit or it doesn't work and so
lobbing it all up and just saving it is
one thing and then iterating through all
the text is like the worst case scenario
like there's no reason to have to do
anything like that and so like
the backwards-compatibility part of it
could be solved in other different ways
but like using the navigation again is
in a blob of it I agree is just like
it's kind of silly but you know we'll be
having a different conversation in five
years when it like everyone else come
catches up and understands that it
doesn't work and then we'll be talking
about the new version of menu blocks and
widgets and things where you have to
migrate all the data and you have to
chop the all the blocks up into separate
little data chunks and then save them
someplace else like it's just weird how
and frustrating how and like myself like
we've talked about this privately like
you know when you're you feel sort of
alone try against the grain like
swimming against the current and then
you have a reputation for swimming
against the current or for being a not a
team player or for for not being on
board with the direction that things are
going this is what many many people felt
during the initial development of
Gutenberg there tributing in the
comments and it felt like they're going
against the grain that they're calling
things out that this is gonna work and
typically were met with no no no it'll
be fine you just watch mm-hm
or or avoidance Rayo frankly like I
don't I don't want I don't want to be
continually told or we'll sort it out
later which is what the widget stuff was
like I'm like but if you don't bake
these decisions into your original
decision process you can't just solve
them later you have all these prebate
assumptions about how it's going to work
and you just and you end up coding
yourself into a corner and you can't get
out of it and that's why that's how you
end up like that like and like again I
don't want to come off as negative I
don't want to come off as this bad guy
but I mean I love this project and I
think it's important to the web is
important to the world so I will you can
pay me as a bad guy you can call me you
you know negative or dick or something
like it's fine as long as the right
result comes out of it and we can't do
it with data-driven decisions and not I
feel like this is the right decision
wasn't the thing that's interesting to
me is that if if you
that you feel like it's the right
decision without any data then no one
would listen anyways like the fact that
it's always on the other person or the
opposite side to like prove someone else
wrong is a it is sort of like its own
logical fallacy that you can't get out
of like how it just seems a little silly
that someone can feel a certain way and
push something through and then you
constantly have to like do not only know
that you'll have to do the rework but
like have to go through the the like the
painstaking process of like deep very
detail-oriented lis going through
someone's planned and telling them how
it is wrong and then having them just do
it anyways because they feel like it's
right like why even bother
like I get how you feel like you and
when you when you do all that work and
that research and you try to explain to
somebody or a team of people like what a
different approach would be and they
just don't do it or or or they don't
respond to you at all like the hardest
part is just being ignored when people
just are avoiding talking to you about
all of it like something should be said
or responded back to you but yeah that's
a I'm sorry that you had to go through
the process of like doing all the work
and getting ignored it's a bad deal and
like I even I come to this like knowing
quite a bit about widgets and how they
scale because I was working on a ticket
three years ago to move widgets to posts
anyway because I was working on that
site that had fallen to post things were
starting to break I did all this work
and Western has got a ticketless need
three or four years old now we it was we
were looking at it like I'm like your
guy that you should it should have been
like oh yeah so he knows what he's
talking about like we should they should
sort me Apple they should have sought me
and Western out about this they should
have looked at that ticket but when they
created our she didn't even know about
that ticket because they're not looking
at on track they're not looking through
the backlog and like I get it they're
new but there's fifteen or sixteen years
of history now but needs to look and you
need you need it like sometimes I refer
to myself as a historian like Nitin you
have all this like because I went so
deep and researching this stuff I know
why some of these decisions were made
and oftentimes I'll speak to you John
I'd like why why did we do this and
you'll dig out some random conversation
on from eight years ago on what we're
using before slack iirc you know you
actually did that once I was like dude
that's insane you can do that also it's
insane that he would remember that
that's where that was I said before
before we wrap it up here so in light of
all of your contributions to WordPress
your involvement in all these different
projects from what we've seen from the
development of Guttenberg is and also
from what recently happened with Yoast
of walk stepping down as the marketing
lead of WordPress but this mostly
stemmed from what we've seen with the
development of Guttenberg Morton rain
Hendrickson and retro cherry of starting
a new project called the WP governance
project to try and bring some governance
principles to WordPress so we can have a
governing body people were in certain
positions they're nominated devoted we
know what they're doing what the
responsibilities are or for what what's
your take on on WP governance is it
something you feel is necessary or
needed at this point within the project
so a self-imposed mission recently to
try and understand how decisions are
made in WordPress and how anyone gets
anything merged into core and it's funny
what Joe said about assuming that there
were these backroom conversations
happening that there was there was there
some sort of wordpress gods that are
sitting there perhaps laughing
maniacally over a globe with with a cap
really you know plotting nothing how
what wordpress is going to do and what
unfortunately a lot of people after
believe and think that's how that that's
how things get done in WordPress
and but then it's funny that people talk
to me and they think I'm sometimes I
think I'm part of that they think that
I'm one of these like inebriate yeah
there
you know these word 4's gods that I know
that doesn't exist all of these like a
lot of this stuff happens all of our
motifs like meetings happen in public we
published a road map in public
everything happens in public sometimes I
have private conversations with people
but it's more just for expediency sake
and then I will write up what we talked
about in in the ticket like I strongly
believe in transparency my big thing is
we should be more transparent and be
more trying to tell you give people
roadmaps and ideas of where we're going
and I think what Matt's done with the
focuses is that actually awesome it's
like right now we have gold you know a
goal to head towards so we can all focus
ourselves I mean I don't always
necessarily agree with those goals as
they make most that may tell now I want
all the things to be multi-site and and
we can come on site but and that's a
question that's a that's a comment I
made to Matt like can we try a new some
other things that are just editor based
but yeah I do think we need a bit of
governance I just think transparency is
important and putting more stuff on the
make blog with some with like digital
explanation of why decisions were made
it feels like we just communicate the
decision but not why it was made
does any anything you do you can do it
in code you can do an infinite number of
ways we sometimes I've put put this is
the decision we're making personally
hating it thinking this is this is
rubbish like I don't like this decision
but it's the right decision and our
posters maybe are probably too positive
like this is the right solution
everything's fine but it's not like this
is a sucky solution that we've got but
we did it for these reasons and I
personally I'm using Twitter and I'm
just going like here's what I'm working
on and give me pork yeah this is what I
think is important and I think we use
Cordoba to be using our blogs we should
be using Twitter to communicate what
we're doing and what
we think is important we should also
like try and take feedback from I got a
lot of workouts I just like ask people
like what what do you think's missing in
WordPress and try and get their feedback
because we're wordpress is so focused on
being user centric piece of software at
the moment I think it's it's not it's
discounting developers and it's making
developers life a little bit harder
because we're constantly going whether
users first like well developers are
also users and if you give developers
awesome tools to build awesome stuff
they will they will make great
experiences and great plugins for users
so helping developers helps users I feel
like the constant arguing I'm having is
like but we need like we should like
making blocks should be easier than it
is like a AFC has done some amazing ACF
very there's some amazing stuff around
the speed to be based but like freaking
game-changer I wish that was what
virtually one of Gutenberg was so we had
to have this massive infrastructure of
blocks but unfortunately it's only a six
and we act and people had to matter the
upskill themselves everybody seems to be
using these different tool sets to
create just their their builds or their
layouts just to be able to get to the
point where they can make a block that
could be its own show because that Deb
that bothers the heck out of me right
now like the like like the that only
just build tools and not only everybody
using kind of frantically different
stacks to try and get the job done but
like as much as I am super happy for all
of our friends at WP engine that just
ship dev kit like the we have we have
we're sort of reinventing browser Wars
all over again for ourselves where we
have like all of these different local
environments all these different ways to
like ship or write a wordpress site or
plugins or themes like for the WP CLI
has a plug-in scaffold that has a theme
scaffold we have underscores like we
have these we spend all this time trying
to boil something down to like to like
the bare ingredients of a thing and then
once we do it we just start all over
again and we haven't learned anything we
our PC finally gets most of its coverage
and we we ditch it for a rest API we get
rest mostly filled in and it'll probably
be graph QL that replaces it like there
is something that like is just very
human and like infinite about the way
that we all kind of try to resolve and
solve and solve again the same problem
that was already solved before us we've
had MAMP man pays extra buck has phpunit
you could just use it but everybody ends
up reinventing something for to solve a
very specific or addressed a very
specific need it did so for there's a
always some period of time where there
is some tool or multiple tools to choose
from and they all are like 79% awesome
and like 21% painful and then everyone
kind of deals and figures out what the
pain is solves that problem and by the
time you've gotten there there's some
brand new thing that's 79% awesome again
that you're stuck with like petty of
problems that aren't even solved like
importing and exporting data in
WordPress great thanks exporting your
XML file that if you've got more than
like a thousand posts in it it's gonna
barf and die and not really give you any
error message you get a white screen or
my new shiny a fatal error message that
you're like moving your site from one
host to another if on on technical
person is a freaking nightmare right now
mm-hmm
like there's plenty opposed we haven't
solved and if you look at the project
like oh yeah should be this 15 year old
sitting in your piece of software should
be easy to move from it from one host to
another but I can't and there's like
tons of like weird gaps in the web as
ecosystem I'm like oh why is this
difficult like and like we're trying to
read you know we're trying to we're
focusing on like oh we can preview your
YouTube videos when you move the blocks
up and down great it was like but this
is but then I can't move my post for me
to be like pretty what that's that's
nuts you know do you have any have you
done any work on Drupal maybe the
recently or have you been monitoring
group will be
because from what I've seen from their
development process they've seen have
gone developer-centric first building
all these awesome kind of developer toys
and tools into their first and now we're
starting to see in fact it was just
released
Sarah Gooding wrote about this earlier
this weekend the tavern about Drupal
Drupal burg a drupal gutenberg 1.0 it's
not ready for production sites to be
used out in production but seems like
Drupal has gone the way of developers
first then users and you know I've
always been wondering are we ever gonna
see the tides change where the
developers start creating all these nice
user experiences and other things in
Drupal where they start to overtake
WordPress a market share because
WordPress maybe isn't doesn't have the
developer first mindset yeah I mean I
haven't used Drupal recently but I was
at a an open source day where we had
Joomla Drupal and WordPress people
working together on various different
stuff it was really cool to to talk to
different communities one tool the
Drupal team had which is friggin awesome
was so when you submit a patch to to
Drupal I still patch files but you can
click a button it will spin up a little
server that lasts a day a plot with the
latest version of Drupal or whatever you
specify and apply the patch to it so I
don't need to have some janky vvv local
dev environment set up I can literally
with my just a browser start texting
patches and like can you imagine if you
had that for WordPress like go to
contribute today and all you need is a
laptop with a web browser you can't
bring a little Chromebook or your iPad
with you and you can start testing
patches for us you can test translations
you can test CSS changes like a be
friggin awesome
like web person needs to massively
upskirt like improve its tooling because
like if you've ever dealt with track
it's it's a nightmare and it's the thing
that I when I think about the project
I'm like I love it but the thing I hate
the most about it is track and dealing
with that awful interface uploading
patches have to manually run unit
like no it's 2019 and we've got better
tools like please like and and when Matt
says oh when people ask him whether
we're gonna get rid of track it's like
say oh it's not a priority I'm like how
is encouraging thousands of people to
contribute not a top priority for the
project I don't understand like we're
really focusing on moving it's more
important than anything else is to get
off of that and having having nice
tooling to make it easy for contributed
for people to contribute come home or in
two days and yeah if we're post doesn't
step up its game it will lose market
share you're here first folks I I
thought it was gonna be maybe this year
because of Guttenberg but I know it
seems to be inching upwards ever so
slightly so with that I guess John I'll
leave my John I'll leave it up to you to
have final last words and Johnny I'll
let you do anything you'd like to
mention or talk about and be sure to
tell us where we can follow you and keep
tabs on you and well my own yeah we'll
send you on your way
I don't really have any questions for
Johnny because I can ping him anytime I
want to and we've and we've we've talked
to a lot about different things so I
don't know I guess just on the show I
want to I want to say that I appreciate
you you work hard you spend a lot of
time working on a lot of different
things
Oh my house a is a heart heart right
back at you
thank you for your contribution sir yeah
it's uh it's not always easy and there
maybe aren't always a lot of pets in the
back or a lot of thank yous but it's
worth it in the end and it's nice to
know it's nice to have you as a friend
it's good to see you on the show
and I'll see you in Europe yeah man
all right so Johnny where could we keep
tabs yeah and folly and will you be
obviously I guess you'll be at wordcamp
europe yeah back at europe but you'll
find me at the bar probably you can
follow me on twitter the space monkey
I'm
space monkey on github and space monkey
calm why blog about very very develop
refocus things so if you want to and
really no doubt written my blog posts
and yeah thanks help me on guys
i wonder i wonder how many people under
listening or listening to Johnny
Harrison just going like this
no they're just just nodding their heads
but you know the good news is is that
we've seen at Josefa Hayden was brought
on board earlier this year she's kind of
like the executive director in front of
Matt she's trying to wrangle everybody
and sure communication should be doing a
team she's trying to it almost looks
like she's setting up a governance
within WordPress when you start looking
at the way things are progressing and
we're looking at eventually trying to at
least get people to be able to submit
patches to github that would be a step
in the right direction for a lot of
developers you know there's there's
things afoot but geez I just did
everything slow going when you're when
you power a third of the web I guess you
people need manpower I guess I spoke to
our people power sorry I spoke for about
two and a half hours work camp London
yeah I've got a lot of time for she's
got she's maybe not publicizing all the
stuff that she's doing but she's working
so hard I can't wait for her to start
talking about something plus this team
man we got a grant we got to get her on
the show John yes we do right after
we're gonna get around after work camp
Europe you know give everybody a week or
two to decompress cuz it's going to be a
lot of awesome stuff coming out of work
camp Europe well Johnny thanks a lot for
spending your evening with us here and
thank you for listening to the show and
so the three good Johnny Harris of
spaced monkey comas great just to have a
mine it was just a general conversation
about from somebody who's in the
trenches working on various projects
things that during countering and they
have a Johnny and obviously you know
what he's going through could you talk
to him but yeah a little bit about it
it's uh you know we have a lot in common
a lot of different things experience
perspectives ideas on things of
directions things should go and so you
know it's a it's important to you know
be supportive have friends all that
stuff it's good so a couple things I
wanted to get to before we wrap it up
here the first is that yesterday
WordPress was borked and if you visited
TechCrunch she's nine to five Mac or any
of the other large web sites that were
on VIP go you would have seen the 2019
theme and a beautiful potted succulent
plant had her image if you went to gizmo
TOCOM it was they had a pretty funny
write-up about this and a gallery
showing all the various different web
sites with showing the featured image of
the succulent which turns into a little
bit of an internet meme I suppose they
were running into issues across their
containers apparently based on their
systems blog and some of the theme files
were missing causing these themes to
revert back to the default theme and
some of these sites were showing 503 or
500 errors for the better part of three
hours but eventually they got things
figured out and these sites look as good
as new but it was interesting there was
an opportunity to actually see what the
2019 theme looks like on some very
content heavy web sites it didn't look
all that bad but you could tell that
their sites were heavily coated and
optimized and configured for the the
themes that they were using I'm looking
forward I'm looking forward to the VIP
teams detailed wrap-up posts into the
report the incident report will be
really important because they spread
themselves a little bit thin on their
own blog and on Twitter and so you kind
of got a it was like a circular
dependency of trying to figure out like
what had happened and who was working on
what and whether or not things were
fixed you got pushed at Twitter and
Twitter told you to go to their blog and
then their blog told you to go to
Twitter again and I was like I don't how
does anybody how do you keep up with
what's happening here so the incident
report I think will be very valuable but
this is really WordPress coms or VIPs
only like second actual kind of outage
in verbe
Stickley ever so at least this got fixed
and but two hours give or take about
about three hours yeah three hours about
three now five hours I know because I
love my clients I hosted on VIP go so
that was a fun evening for me so do you
know anything that we don't know Johnny
I do okay there's a tomorrow I get it
it's fine
no I just thought I don't know I know I
don't people that work at me I don't
shave their weights it's hard to host
those big site site yes it is and as
John James Jacobi mentioned earlier WP
engine has launched dev kit I wanted to
give a shout-out to Chris wingman and
Jason Stallings who have been working on
this for the past few years dev kit is a
wordpress local development environment
that includes SSH gateway access push
and pull deployments - WP engine of
course you'd have that because you know
works exclusively with WP engine
although it can work independently of
the host as well you get PHP myadmin web
grind varnish HTTP proxy Genesis
framework WP CLI commands which is also
exclusive to dev kit because WP engine
acquired studiopress a few months back
currently dev kits user interfaces
command line only with plans to add a
GUI later this year you could sign up
and test it out in the open beta it's
available for Mac and Linux and so you
could sign up on their signup page and
one thing I noticed is that so I started
thinking about this so Det WP engine has
def kit hey flywheel or flywheel has
local by flywheel lo cool and I was like
you know I guess it's not a bad idea if
you're a web host if you can create or
purchase this local development software
have it tied have it have some features
ready to tie specifically into your
cypher staging deployments push and pull
technology but then I was thinking what
if you're a developer you're a client or
a consultant you're managing various
client sites and you have some that's
not flywheel some that's not the engine
now what do you do do you have three
four or five different local
environments that you used to manage
their sites or do you just
how's everything on one environment and
and hope for the best that's what I was
hinting at earlier and you're right
you're probably stuck having all of them
installed like the nice thing like
Johnny kind of alluded to earlier is
that the most of these tools and I think
dev kit is probably the one of the first
that really is just relatively
lightweight and kind of nicely
containerized where you're not
necessarily running everything in its
own VM like you do with local by
flywheel or some of the others like this
is just everything kind of nice and neat
in its own container and like you know
don't get me wrong earlier in the show
and I brought dev kit up is like I am
happy to see these tools and I love all
the people that work on them equally
it's just like you said Jeff it it's a
it's a weird future where you've got all
of these things installed and I mean our
poor poor battery lives on all of our
laptops are just look at the Swiss Army
knife it has every tool is a different
piece of software that installs a local
environment well and like to the hosts
that my client is I it's like the
infinite loop of like mono repos and
micro services you build something that
has everything like map and everyone
hates it and then you build something
small that's very specific like vvv or
local by flywheel and then people love
it for different reasons and then a
bunch of stuff gets added to it and then
somebody comes out with something
smaller again like dev kits cool it
didn't work for me but it was also like
a bad user and didn't file a bug report
so I have to dig into it a little bit
more but I've been using local from the
folks at flywheel for a while it's been
really great so I'm excited to test out
dev kit some more once it's hopefully
working for me and they don't mention it
anywhere and I I will mention it on the
show is that amongst all the things that
it does include x2 bug PHP myadmin all
the things it a included varnish which I
thought was a little weird for that but
it's ok and then they don't mention it
but it does include PHP unit
so for folks that do want to try using
uh dedicate for their own their own
plugins or theme development and running
their own unit test a PHP unit is
included in dev kit I wonder how well
this works on Windows though so it
doesn't work at all right now I window
yeah so they don't have an open beta
available it's just for me and Linux
right now so the reason why vvv still
uses vagrant old tech at this point is
Windows support and take it from someone
who's gone to a lot o of good should be
today's saying Macs and Linux machines
up takes minutes setting up BBV on
Windows is what takes the morning for me
and like we can't a lot of people can't
afford to buy a Mac so we do have to
steal support these users and it's a
hard problem to solve like there's I
would love a a docker eyes development
environment that WordPress core team
supports and we can do but like
supporting widows just been it's been
the nightmare for it for a multiple
years when vvv would be a problem or if
you're at a word camp and everyone else
is clogged in the network cuz they're
all trying to download the same virtual
machine or whatever else they're just
just pulling down some enormous file to
try and get everything working I would
literally just go straight back to man
pro like there are times where you can
easily just you have a local environment
and use MAMP an amp is perfectly fine
but you know when you're working in
modern stacks and more complex kind of
environments then it does make sense for
you to to have a dedicated tool for that
and like the vvv was one of those
projects that I is very close to my
heart even though I didn't really
contribute a lot to it I used it
non-stop every day all day long for
multiple years for a while there and but
it's just it's always been something
that required a little bit more
attention than I wanted to give it and
so it's like seeing seeing dev kit
knowing that Chris and the folks are
behind it I'm I'm excited to try it and
hopefully in a working State for me and
last but not least
buddypress 5.0 development began in
about December of 2018 let's see this
was after 4.0 was released in November
apparently the buddypress core team has
not published a roadmap for what would
be coming in 5.0 but features and fixes
added so far it could be found on github
and one of them is the BP buddypress
nuevo template PEC will use the same
password control that is used by
WordPress so buddypress users will be
able to set their passwords using more
presses interface on the registration
page and on the user's general settings
page so by default buddypress will
generate a strong password but the user
can still edit it if necessary if the
user selects the password that is too
weak the submit button will be disabled
until the user confirms they want to
proceed by checking the check box it's
nice to have that back in there like
well one I should say where did it go
it's nice to as well so it's it's nice
to have I math back working on the press
again because he he took a little bit of
a hiatus for a while I think everyone
kind of comes and goes as they is this
kind of they they have ideas for what it
is that they want to see in buddypress
or the direction that they wanted to go
and even like Johnny said earlier we
went the route of having it be a
developer playground for a little while
but the user facing things are the
things that help people feel like
there's life in the project so when the
password the generate password UI that's
everyone is familiar with now that's in
the WordPress admin dashboard on your
profile page a lot of folks put a lot of
time and work into that and then myself
and Marc Jake with kind of in the last
four or five days before it shipped
quickly kind of tried to improve a few
little things with it so there's an are
you sure if you don't save the form and
then we pulled it apart and abstracted
it so that it could be used or reused by
something like buddypress so it was a
long time coming for this to eventually
get pulled into buddypress and for it to
to kind of hit the hit the release and
so leave it to I math to pull that and
he worked on spent of many many months
working on VP Nouveau and and getting
the new template pack and everything
working so there is anybody that can
pull that in and make it happen it's
definitely him an array I think both
both works on this pretty closely so in
a 5.0 sorry so if anyone out there has
actually used the BP templates BP no
wave oh just password verify that J is
template it is scheduled to be
deprecated and deleted and buddypress
6.0 so developers want to take note if
using me
BP nuevo password verify script as a
dependency for custom password control
implementations buddypress 5.0 will also
add BP specific debug info to the same
info screen I was introduced in
WordPress 5.2 so it looks like meetings
for the project have been a bit sporadic
5.0 was expected at the end of May but
it looks like a new timeline might be
discussed in the next meeting which is
tentatively planned for today the DEF
chance happened when we record the show
so it's not easy for me to make them I'm
sorry it's ok I also realize now that
usually when we record the show is when
the like the ups and the FedEx delivery
guys come through the neighborhood and
so we might have to change that because
the dogs bark and like doorbell rings
and stuff I have to mute myself which
but I love penny up on the show - but my
Paul bark so loud that in everybody's
ears you know he should talk with it
alternative I think maybe we figure it
out but everyone was talking in the dev
chat today Renato's been working on on
VP CLI work MVP REST API
lots of stuff that's happening under the
hood so 5.0 that's kind of the beginning
of a lot of them and people press I did
you do do is though as a heartbeat I
hear it does
newbie press is still alive alone out
there sorry is stable and running out
there
somebody just submitted a patch and I
fixed a bug the other day with the
favourites repair tool so thank you for
for contributing to making BB press
better all right so that's gonna do it
for today's episode next week
Malcolm Peralta is going to sub in for
John James ecobee as he will be on his
way or you might even already be in
Berlin for or camp Europe a big event
that's gonna take place next week by the
way it will be live streamed for free so
if you're not able to make it be sure to
check out the work camp bu website for
details on how to watch and register for
the live stream that's gonna do it for
this episode of WordPress week that you
find show notes for this episode and all
other episodes on WP tavern calm and you
follow me on twitter you can follow my
health train journey to see the je FF r0
and John follow me on Twitter and github
at JJJ or JJJ dot blog and if you'll be
at wordcamp europe i'll be giving my
talk at 11:00 a.m. on friday advanced
database management for wordpress
plugins so come hang out I'd love to see
you there awesome and you'll be now
you're you're working for me I want
don't want you to do or can't be you
wrap up when you get back
I told you I would I don't know why but
I told you I would
so everybody enjoy the rest of your week
we're talking again next Wednesday
afternoon and say bye John
say bye bye John bye John