15 Comments


  1. I agree with what Otto said on the other thread that it should be more about loading or not loading functionality than segmenting out core into chunks. In the end the result is the same, you’d get some — but not all — pieces loading and therefore a pseudo-customized experience.

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  2. Carl Hancock

    I think at this point WordPress is so ubiquitous that a fork isn’t recommended and more importantly would probably not succeed.

    Entirely new solutions like Ghost have a better chance of gaining some traction starting from scratch rather than forking WordPress. But it’s still a tough row to hoe. This isn’t exactly a space lacking solutions. There’s tons of blogging apps and CMS apps out there. But Ghost is very promising and it’s garnered a lot of attention which will give it a huge leg up when it comes to gaining some traction.

    As for core plugins… I didn’t expect them to gain traction. So it’s progressed exactly how I thought it would. Good plugins are products themselves. To do them right if it’s anything other than extremely basic functionality is going to take dedication and lot’s of effort. Dedication that would be better focused on the core rather than a plugin given it’s development not being done for money.

    But I do agree that the best usage for Core Plugins would be to remove functionality from core itself and provide it as a plugin.

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  3. It boils down to figuring out a way to remove all the stuff that’s not needed in WordPress and coming up with a lean, modular core.

    Rather than talking about vague abstractions like modules, forks, core plugins or a lean, modular core, it would be more productive to talk about specifics. What exactly can or should be removed from WordPress core and packaged into an optional module?

    People seem to be talking about WordPress lately as if it’s some kind of bloatware. It’s a mature application supports a wide variety of server configurations. This is the reason that there are portions of the code that are more complex or more bloated than they would otherwise be.

    WordPress does a lot, but I honestly can’t think of a lot that would make sense to move into an optional module without causing unnecessary confusion or frustration for end users. Certainly none that would impact performance to such a degree that it’s justified.

    It would be good to get some suggestions from people for what specifically could be removed or placed into optional modules, and then discuss the impact and the advantages of doing so.

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  4. MK Safi

    What I got from watching the pitch video for Ghost is that it makes the post writing experience better. It’s not about adding or stripping away any functionality from WordPress.

    And I have to agree that post writing, previewing, and editing on WordPress is very painful. It’s sluggish and cumbersome.

    WordPress as a software maybe is amazing, but the user experience is pretty terrible. I’m a long time WordPress user and developer and recently I wanted to start a blog on wordpress.com and wow. What a nightmare that was! The back end and configurations are more confusing than cPanel!

    Sent from my iPhone

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  5. Excellent writeup and a great analysis of my article and the other work that has been done and published on the subject. I am appending a link to this article in mine as suggested further reading.

    To some of the points: My intention is not necessarily to insist that a forked approach is the only way to go. It is rather to kick off a renewed discussion about where WordPress is headed and more importantly what the goal is of WordPress as a whole. I guess in some way the idea of a fork is distracting from this main point so let me clarify:

    My main beef with WordPress right now is the same issue Ghost is hoping to solve: It’s way too complicated for the novice. But that’s just the tip of the iceberg. There is also a lot of effort being put into elements that may not have as much user appeal as they seem. One prime example is the new Post Formats UI. Having discussed this at length with users, developers, UX designers, designers, and everyone in between I have been hard pressed to find anyone who needs or even wants this new feature. It seems to be a feature desired by core developers but not necessarily wanted by the people who actually use WordPress. I may be wrong or my polling data may be off, but it’s a strange focus of energy, especially when the much more useful update to Post Revisions was put aside.

    Likewise the development of MP6 seems less of a demand from the users and more something the core developers themselves want.

    Now before you get me wrong here: I appreciate the work and the time put into these things, but from my perspective what matters is the person at the other end of the chain who actually uses WordPress in the real world. Post Formats produce weird questions like “Do I click the Video button when I want to add a video to my post” while MP6 requires retraining of everyone who uses the application. That’s fine for casual bloggers, but in an enterprise environment where hundreds of people work on a highly customized install it means hours of retraining and endless questions from IT and management about why everything looks different and why the weird media buttons don’t work the way they should. Think of the backlash Microsoft faced when they switched form “old” Office UI to “new” Office UI and you get the idea.

    To me the primary focus of WordPress (and any other application for that matter) is to meet the demands of the end user. And like I said, the end user of WordPress is not homogenous. Just like there is a PhotoShop Elements to PhotoShop, an iMovie to Final Cut Pro, and a Windows Home Edition to Windows Enterprise, there should be a WordPress Blogger to WordPress CMS.

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  6. @Drew Jaynes – Yes, even a pseudo-customized experience would be better than segmenting everything into core plugins or optional modules.

    @Carl Hancock – That’s my feeling as well. Because of the large third party ecosystem and the economy surrounding WordPress, forking it just isn’t going to get anyone very far. However, I love seeing things like Ghost come up where they have a clean slate. Fresh code and a fresh take on how to accomplish tasks while revamping the publishing experience. It will be interesting to see how well Ghost is received after it hits the public’s hands. With the financial backing, I imagine John is now under a lot of pressure to deliver the goods.

    I outlined the development of Core Plugins because somewhere within that idea, was the revelation of taking out some functionality from WordPress and applying it to a plugin. But as we can see, a few years later development of Core Plugins has really stagnated. Too much effort directed to core and not enough left over for those plugins.

    @John Blackbourn – You raise some good points and in fact, I’m going to outline a list of things that I wouldn’t mind seeing removed from WordPress and either put into a plugin or just disappearing entirely. But like I mentioned in the post, the things I don’t use and would like to see be put into a plugin are the same things my neighbor probably uses every day. Although with what happened to the Blogroll/Links area in WordPress, it’s been proven that longstanding functionality can be removed from WordPress.

    @MK Safi – That video is what got me excited to try out Ghost. If John can nail down the publishing experience and make it better than what WordPress offers, he could be really onto something. Funny you mention WordPress.com because I completely agree with you. One day, I decided to reopen my account on .com and was amazed at everything that was put in front of me. To put it bluntly, it’s a cluster#$@!. I have no idea how new users can easily navigate around and accomplish tasks using WordPress.com.

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  7. @Morten Rand-Hendriksen – Thanks for stopping by and clarifying some of your points. I think we can all agree that at the end of the day, what matters is the end user. I think another example I could throw in here is the image editing features that were added. Just another group of features I don’t use because I do my image processing/editing on my desktop outside of WordPress.

    It’s an interesting paradox. In the early days of WordPress, we wanted more features to be added to WordPress. 10 years later, we want features taken away. As for your MP6 example, I’m not sure if that is actually going to be added to core or if it will remain as an experimental plugin. At least some of the bigger ideas for WordPress can start out as plugins first, then be added to core when they are in demand or are ready.

    I remember a few years ago in an interview I conducted with Matt where I asked him what was the overall goal of WordPress considering its userbase. I remember him saying that the goal was to simply democratize publishing and enable anyone in the world to get their thoughts published online. I don’t know about you but I think WordPress as is does a fairly decent job at reaching that goal. A lot could be done to improve the process of publishing those words and removing anything that may be getting in the way of putting those thoughts and words online.

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  8. Albert

    “One prime example is the new Post Formats UI. Having discussed this at length with users, developers, UX designers, designers, and everyone in between I have been hard pressed to find anyone who needs or even wants this new feature. It seems to be a feature desired by core developers but not necessarily wanted by the people who actually use WordPress.” (@Morten Rand-Hendriksen)

    Totally agree. Sometimes I wonder what’s the point of wordpress.org/extend/ideas/ if it’s completely ignored by the core developers.

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  9. @Morten Rand-Hendriksen -Actually, I CAN’T WAIT for post formats to finally make its fully-formed debut. The delays in releasing 3.6 are driving me nuts!

    Also, WP seems pretty darned easy to use. Complaints of complexity seem overblown.

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  10. This reminds me of discussion the Postnuke-Community had 10 years ago. They started a fork in 2005 iirc: Postnuke 0.8 which became Zikula 1.0 – a total rewrite and a core without modules. You are able to assemble just the function you need. Its based on Symphony now. From a developer perspective, it’s a great piece of Software, but they lost most of their community to Joomla and WordPress because they offer a lot of stuff out of the box… it seems, history is repeating.

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  11. I have to agree with @Morten Rand-Hendriksen about beginners. I work with them all the time, and the belief WordPress is fantastically easy for beginners to learn and use is, at best, half-myth. The most common complaints I hear are overwhelmingly about the admin Dashboard–way too many exposed options and features, too many different ways to do the same task, and no clear path through the interface.

    And more often than not, the beginners I help or talk to don’t understand the difference between a “blog” and a “website”–or rather, they almost always want “a website with blogging”, not “a blog”. In other words, they don’t really care about “posts”, and are confused by them when they don’t really want a blog. In fact, most WP beginners I talk to want (a) the front-end design part to be (a) much simpler, and a CMS (though they don’t call it that, of course). The “header image” functionality, for example, is awkwardly bad and outdated for today’s needs.

    And so on. WP really is headed down a path of diluted strength, I think despite best intentions. I’d support a fork of some sort, or even a re-imagining of things.

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  12. Really enjoying this discussion. I think it’s very valid.

    Check out what we’ve been building at http://beta.seshn.com.

    It’s designed to be your home on the web, where you can show off all of your social networks you’re on, you can post blogs and you can even aggregate content via auto-posts from your existing apps.

    We’ve built a very custom layer on top of WP. IMHO, it’s one of the most ambitious undertakings ever to be built with WordPress. In my experience with building this layer on top of WP, there are certain parts of the core that just need to be forked, such as the post editor. We could sit around and wait for the team to add the features & functions we need, but that could take months or even years based on the rate of development.

    I am trying to figure out if we’re going to fork it, or just use our existing solution. If we do fork, I’m wondering if we should just fork the entire thing. Would love any feedback or thoughts.

    Be happy to set anyone up with a beta account, so you can see what we’ve done. Get in touch! brandon @ seshn dot com

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